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Post by Ninja Relaxer on Apr 30, 2021 12:02:34 GMT -5
Agreed on the Rolling Hill. I've never liked it as an obstacle. It also seems more dangerous than what's generally allowed today -- some of those belly-flops onto the landing mat look downright painful.
I do like the Quad Steps and its variations, though. It's probably the best first obstacle we've ever had, and one of the most iconic for me. The problem, though, is that it has become too easy. The "steps" are now huge, padded platforms that people can cling to, so competitors can stop mid-obstacle and re-adjust if they start to lose their balance or their momentum.
If we could go back to something like the Godantobi, and maybe add another step or two (so there are six total), then we could probably cut down on the number of first-obstacle clears, keep an iconic obstacle in the course, and still meet Health & Safety standards.
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tns8597
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Post by tns8597 on Apr 30, 2021 16:20:55 GMT -5
Yeah I mean Kanno injured himself jumping off from it in 33 let's not forget.
In terms of the first obstacle, I always liked the idea of the Twelve Timbers, because they were slanted at different angles and basically failed anyone who didn't establish a proper rhythm and degree of momentum (thus taking out most joke competitors). They're also nowhere near as potentially dangerous as the Rolling Hill was.
One other idea I've brought up now and again is to keep the Quad Steps but make them like the original Godantobi so they were steep enough that competitors can't just cling to them and go slowly, then followed by an obstacle that requires momentum from the Quad Steps (thus failing anyone who takes the slow and steady approach) like the Pole Maze. It's a super underrated obstacle imo and works well following the Quad Steps as if the competitor goes too slow on the former then they won't be able to move the pole to the other side of the track. We obvs had the Step Slider but that's already been done before and we need some innovation in this renewal, as much as the budget permits ofc.
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Post by Kane-Not-Kosugi on Apr 30, 2021 16:34:07 GMT -5
I want the Backstream to go but not for the reasons ppl say. Everyone hates on it cuz it's water and swimming and dangerous at times (like 29) but I have a very simple reason.
Inui won't have to complain about budgeting when he removes a hydraulic engine and a pool from the budget.
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tns8597
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Post by tns8597 on May 1, 2021 3:15:13 GMT -5
Same with the super motorised Cliffhanger. Part of me thinks both are going to stay though.
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Post by subtleagent on May 1, 2021 10:53:40 GMT -5
Personally I see no reason to change the Cliffhanger. Honestly I felt there was no need to even change it in 37, it's not like it wasn't doing damage still. Even with Ryo, Tada, Yuuji, and Morimoto clearing the UCCH it still took out half the people who attempted it in 36. If any I say keep the Dimension and buff something like the Planet Bridge (maybe make the balls move/shake/rotate?). Or better yet maybe replace the Planet Bridge. Sidewinder can go IMO, it's really overstayed it's welcome and I never really cared for it.
But yeah, Quad Steps + Rolling Hill could stand to go. Defo the Quad Steps since IMO they're an absolute joke compared to other variants of the steps. They barely do damage and are frankly just boring to watch. Rolling Hill could stand to get a makeover, or better yet just scrap it altogether. I think the Fish Bone could stand to be replaced too, I like it, but it doesn't really do much damage anymore and like previously mentioned a lot of joke competitors ended up passing it rather easily. People have adapted to it despite the fact that it's had like what THREE buffs? When an obstacle has been buffed three times and people are still passing it with no real issues I think it's time to scrap the obstacle. And it DQ'ed Takeda in by far the dumbest way possible.
Dragon Glider I enjoy, but they really need to get their s*** together in getting it to actually work. It had so many malfunctions in especially 35 and 38 and there's no real point in keeping it if they can't get it to work properly (like the Swap Salmon Ladder).
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tns8597
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Post by tns8597 on May 1, 2021 14:48:16 GMT -5
I'm genuinely worried that Inui will use Morimoto's Kanzen as an excuse to further buff the Cliffhanger, even though the Dimension's tenure (in working form) has only been one tournament. I know it's unlikely but you genuinely never know with him, and I agree the Dimension's existence in the first place was a bit unwarranted, and also adheres to the recent theme of new Sasuke obstacles being highly controversial given that the ledges moved out of sync which ruined Jun's run as well as Yoshiyuki's (though the latter wasn't a fault of the obstacle's functionality, rather poor organization, but the outcome was unfair nonetheless).
I also mentioned on the course predictions thread for 39 that I think the Planet Bridge will be replaced; it's obviously one of the more expensive obstacles and has done basically zero damage in its tenure. It's also awkwardly placed as it gives the competitors' grip strength, which would've been impacted by the Sidewinder, a rest as it's mainly core, legs and push muscles.
The Dragon Glider will 100% stay, which I have no problem with provided it's not broken this time round and is supplemented with a much more challenging preceding half of the stage that doesn't facilitate even joke competitors getting that far. People go on about how it did an anomalous amount of damage in 38; that was because it malfunctioned multiple times and also the vast majority of attempts were by competitors who had no hope in hell of clearing due to the preceding obstacles being far too easy. In fact I want the entire first half to be replaced; Quad Steps + Rolling Hill have been discussed above, the Silk Slider was only for Covid and it's near-zero knockout rate should be a burning hint for it to go, and the Fish Bone is far too long in the tooth and most competitors have sussed it out. It's unlikely the entire first half will be changed, but one can only hope...
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Post by sackeshi on May 2, 2021 19:55:29 GMT -5
Do people think NBC would give TBS funds for SASUKE if asked? Since ANW wouldn't exist if not for Sasuke.
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Post by subtleagent on May 3, 2021 11:11:43 GMT -5
Doubt it, NBC and TBS don't have the best relationship and TBS has a general disdain/bias for foreigners. To be funded by them would probably make them blow a gasket.
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tns8597
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Post by tns8597 on May 3, 2021 12:52:16 GMT -5
It goes both ways.
NBC also rigged the USA vs the World special. Specifically the Morimoto vs Ghisolfi Stage 3. Both cleared and Morimoto actually did so faster but NBC manipulated the edit as though he took longer to clear the stage, just to ensure Japan finished the competition with zero and to guarantee a dead beat between USA and Europe leading to the Final Stage climb off.
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Post by tns8597 on May 9, 2021 5:08:51 GMT -5
Another unpopular opinion from me.
I really want the original Stage 2 to return. It was so ahead of its time to the point that whereas the other 3 stages are almost laughed at for their insanely low difficulty (especially Stage 3 given the role it occupies now), Stage 2 would still be formidable enough that it would take out a fair few competitors today. 50 seconds to traverse what was like a 30 metre Spider Walk (by far the longest in existence) then scrambling to the finish line with whatever time they had left still seems so difficult now, so I don't even want to think what it would've been like back then.
The reason I want to see it return is that it'll be a resurrection of what Stage 2 was meant to be; a short, sweet speed stage where hesitation and carelessness was punished, and there were far more down-to-the-wire and exciting runs. The recent Stage 2s, aside from 38 to an extent, I feel have allowed far too much lee way time-wise which made the back half just boring to watch as it was unfailable. The original Stage 2 still had the Reverse Conveyer+Wall Lift but it was far more exciting when the competitor was low on time.
I'd say reduce the time limit to 40-45 seconds and it would be a nightmare for some of the less dextrous competitors.
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Post by subtleagent on May 9, 2021 14:38:58 GMT -5
Yeah 1 ~ 4 definitely had that deceitful difficulty obstacles like the Unstable Bridge and Balance Tank had. They were simple if you took your time on them, but the low timer would often cause one to rush and make a mistake. 5 ~ 6 to an extent did too. No one cleared with over 6 seconds.
7 ~ 17's had very few changes, but they kept lowering the time limit and that added an element of surprise to it.
Shin-SASUKE sadly began the whole overuse of upper body on Stage 2 trend, but at least it was justified by mixing up more fast paced obstacles with a reasonable time limit. Thus still giving it an excitement factor.
SASUKE Rising (except 29, and until 38) had a Stage 2 that just offered too much time to make mistakes. Just look at runs like Isa in 37, he made so many errors and still managed to clear. I would've said 34 seemed to be an exception, but most of the failures in Stage 2 were complete noobs with zero shot (Hiroshige defo took the time limit for granted considering he didn't seem to notice he timed out straight away).
So yeah 1 ~ 4 defo could prove deadly to those not accustomed to stepping on the gas.
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Post by tns8597 on May 9, 2021 15:45:09 GMT -5
For me I feel like it was Sasuke 7 where Stage 2 started to become inconsistent with its original theme of being a 'speed stage'. Sasuke 7's Stage 2 was barely any longer than Sasuke 6's; we obvs had the Chain Reaction and Brick Climb but the Spider Walk was shorter and the remainder of the stage was exactly the same, yet the time limit increased from 50 to 90 seconds. It ended up encouraging loads of competitors to just go really slowly which made the stage more boring to watch. It was only from like Sasuke 12 onwards that the time limit became stringent enough such that competitors were forced to rush that caused them to make silly mistakes that resulted in a time out (e.g. Shingo in 13) or a freak fail on the Metal Spin.
Shin-Sasuke's Stage 2 I think was definitely experimental in the right way, but I just think the time limit was far far too lenient (except for maybe Sasuke 23). We got guys clearing with 20-30+ seconds without even seeming like they were rushing, and we only got one time-out throughout the entire era. It seems as though they redirected their attention from obstacles that were only difficult with a stringent time limit (like the Spider Walk) to those that were just objectively much harder, though it would've been interesting to combine the course with a much lower time limit; like Sasuke 23 saw a load of near-fatal errors purely because competitors had to somewhat rush unlike in other tournaments of that era. I personally would've much preferred Sasuke 24's Stage 2 to have been identical to 23's but knocking off an extra 10-15 seconds, rather than adding the half-baked Balance Tank.
And yeah the Rising era's Stage 2 has been a bit of a shambles, especially that Inui doesn't seem to realise that an effectively unfailable back half of the stage doesn't really work when the time limit is too lenient. 38 somewhat remedied this and for once the Backstream, Conveyer, and Wall Lift actually invoked excitement because any slip-up could've resulted in a time-out, and I'm actually kind of excitement to see what 39 brings.
But yeah I still have a soft spot for the original Stage 2, purely because Stage 2 clears were imo the only actually impressive runs of the era (bar Akiyama's Kanzen obvs); every other clear just wasn't that exciting because the stage was usually so easy that it didn't display any sort of inspiring athleticism. Like seeing Yamada clear Stage 3 in Sasuke 3 with the Hang Move and the Pipe Slider with no jump just wasn't that impressive lol. Whereas getting through a highly technical and relatively long course that punishes any sort of hesitation or carelessness in <50 seconds is a different story.
Mind you, the only issue I'd have with implementing it in today's course is that it would add further bias towards smaller and more agile and smaller competitors like Yuuji and Yusuke on a course that's already heavily biased towards those builds. Those guys can speed through the Spider Walk no problem whereas the bigger statures would obvs struggle. I'd say maybe make the Wall Lift harder in one way, shape or form to balance it out a little.
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zoran
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Post by zoran on May 14, 2021 11:05:16 GMT -5
The Warped Wall and Salmon Ladder are just bland now, especially the current Kudari Ladder.
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Post by subtleagent on May 19, 2021 2:30:16 GMT -5
I kind of agree, but I doubt they're going anytime soon considering they tried that in 31 only for everyone to give them a hard no. Though I wouldn't mind seeing them get modified, especially the latter.
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Post by subtleagent on May 20, 2021 21:43:00 GMT -5
Paul Terek was an overhyped American.
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Post by tns8597 on May 21, 2021 5:52:55 GMT -5
Paul Terek was an overhyped American. Agreed on this one. I think the hype in Sasuke 17 was mainly around the fact that we'd never really seen someone as massive as him do well on the highly technical Sasuke course since Travis Allen Shroeder. But at the same time the two aren't really comparable because in Shroeder's case, nothing seemed to stop him given that he even cleared Stage 3 (which penalises weight more than any other stage) before being disqualified. He even posted the fastest times on Stages 1 and 2 purely by muscling his way through using brute force. Terek by comparison barely made it past Stages 1 and 2 in terms of time, and he sucked at Stage 3, so unlike Shroeder his size was clearly a limiting factor in all of his runs. Then came Shin-Sasuke where he obviously struggled massively; not sure why they gave him #98 in his next two appearances after one shoddy Stage 3 attempt but yeah.
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Post by subtleagent on May 21, 2021 21:06:02 GMT -5
I guess one can argue Schroeder had an easier course, but even with his size he seemed so in tune with the course while Terek's runs were much more reliant on his size. Then again bigger people tend to have little luck on the Cliffhanger (though Kong and Kanno cleared tougher cliffhangers despite being rather large relative to their heights). I feel like Olympians (with Jovtchev and Okuyama being exceptions) tend to rely too much on their background which leaves them not as prepped for SASUKE as they should be, at least mentally. Yukio, Miyazaki, the Hamm twins, Seito, and Kendricks come to mind. None of them really performed notably and it felt like their niches never really were 100% suitable for SASUKE.
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Post by tns8597 on May 22, 2021 4:48:08 GMT -5
I mean if we're talking about difficulty for someone way bigger than the standard competitor stature then not really? Sasuke 17's Stage 1 only differed in the sense that it had the Jump Hang, Circle Slider and Warped Wall which are much easier for competitors of Terek's height. Then if we're talking about Stage 2 then the only obstacle that really penalises heavy weight is the Spider Walk, which was a much bigger proportion of the Stage 2 Schroeder tackled than Terek, evidently as the latter blazed through the rest of the obstacles.
And I wouldn't say Olympians rely too much on their background, more that they don't have time to train due to their busy schedules, nor do they invest as much time in Sasuke as it doesn't really define them compared to their Olympic careers. Guys like the All-Stars etc. trained specifically for Sasuke as that's the extent of their athletic careers, while Olympians are obviously far more hell-bent on training for, well, the Olympics as it carries far more weight. They just attempt Sasuke every now and again because they wanted to see how they'd fare on the 'world's toughest course' hence why most quit after 1-2 tournaments; Jovtchev was obviously different because he made the Final Stage in his first attempt which probably had a massive hand in his return and persistence, but even he never really trained for Sasuke specifically.
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zoran
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Post by zoran on May 22, 2021 10:11:34 GMT -5
I mean if we're talking about difficulty for someone way bigger than the standard competitor stature then not really? Sasuke 17's Stage 1 only differed in the sense that it had the Jump Hang, Circle Slider and Warped Wall which are much easier for competitors of Terek's height. Then if we're talking about Stage 2 then the only obstacle that really penalises heavy weight is the Spider Walk, which was a much bigger proportion of the Stage 2 Schroeder tackled than Terek, evidently as the latter blazed through the rest of the obstacles. And I wouldn't say Olympians rely too much on their background, more that they don't have time to train due to their busy schedules, nor do they invest as much time in Sasuke as it doesn't really define them compared to their Olympic careers. Guys like the All-Stars etc. trained specifically for Sasuke as that's the extent of their athletic careers, while Olympians are obviously far more hell-bent on training for, well, the Olympics as it carries far more weight. They just attempt Sasuke every now and again because they wanted to see how they'd fare on the 'world's toughest course' hence why most quit after 1-2 tournaments; Jovtchev was obviously different because he made the Final Stage in his first attempt which probably had a massive hand in his return and persistence, but even he never really trained for Sasuke specifically. The Metal Spin would too.
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tns8597
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Post by tns8597 on May 22, 2021 16:00:45 GMT -5
zoran yes and no. Being 6’3 makes the reach infinitely easier but obvs it’s harder to hold on with more weight.
On that note, what impressed me about Schroeder was how he wasn’t that tall but was incredibly bulky. So he didn’t have the height advantage Terek did but still suffered due to his sheer width and weight. Yet he still absolutely crushed the course, even clearing Stage 3 which almost no one else did (Akiyama was an inch hair away from failing).
Had he not derailed the Pipe Slider, made Stage 4 and achieved Kanzen (which was more than likely given his navy background), imagine what Sasuke would’ve been where the champions were all under 5’5 and 60kg, then on the side a complete giant having achieved the same feat. And having him on the banners of Kanzens beside Yuuji, Morimoto etc. Would be such a weird sight to behold.
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