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Post by Badalight on Feb 4, 2020 20:21:33 GMT -5
Yeah, the Jenovaroth thing is confusing because at this point in the game, Sephiroth should be the Jenova that he is standing in front of. The fact that they both appear at the same time doesn't make sense based on how the story plays out in the original. Going into Spoiler territory.. The Sephiroth you see.. IS Jenova.. Sephiroth was killed by Cloud.. The thing he's standing in front of doesn't have a head.. That is in the Crater with the body of Sephiroth (which was the last thing he was able to do before falling into the lifestream after Cloud stabbed him)
Same as the original game, she is able to manifest herself in any form she wants and since Sephiroth is controlling her thoughts (due to sheer will) he uses the image of Sephiroth to manipulate others around her using their relationship with him). That's why you see the POOF where Sephiroth magically turns into Jenova. The body that is still harvested for her cells doesn't have a head but it kept alive in the tank while her head and conscious is the manifestation of Jenova and Sephiroth throughout the game. Only at the end does the reconstituted Sephiroth appear thanks to the Black Materia. Where in the game does it say it's the head doing the shape shifting? I'm pretty sure it's the main body. That's why throughout the game while you chase Sephiroth, he gradually drops pieces of the body down for the crew to fight. For example, on the cargo ship, he flies away and drops an arm.
If it were the head doing the shape shifting, we'd see Sephiroth carrying around Jenova's body the entire game.
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arsenette
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Post by arsenette on Feb 5, 2020 14:40:49 GMT -5
Going into Spoiler territory.. The Sephiroth you see.. IS Jenova.. Sephiroth was killed by Cloud.. The thing he's standing in front of doesn't have a head.. That is in the Crater with the body of Sephiroth (which was the last thing he was able to do before falling into the lifestream after Cloud stabbed him)
Same as the original game, she is able to manifest herself in any form she wants and since Sephiroth is controlling her thoughts (due to sheer will) he uses the image of Sephiroth to manipulate others around her using their relationship with him). That's why you see the POOF where Sephiroth magically turns into Jenova. The body that is still harvested for her cells doesn't have a head but it kept alive in the tank while her head and conscious is the manifestation of Jenova and Sephiroth throughout the game. Only at the end does the reconstituted Sephiroth appear thanks to the Black Materia. Where in the game does it say it's the head doing the shape shifting? I'm pretty sure it's the main body. That's why throughout the game while you chase Sephiroth, he gradually drops pieces of the body down for the crew to fight. For example, on the cargo ship, he flies away and drops an arm.
If it were the head doing the shape shifting, we'd see Sephiroth carrying around Jenova's body the entire game. Go back to the part where Cloud remembers in full HOW Sephiroth died (It is in the dream sequence after the events of Mideel where both Tifa and Cloud fall into the lifestream after the first Weapon attack). Sephiroth (the real one) came out of the Nibelheim reactor staggering holding her head. He managed to defeat both Tifa and Zack but Cloud chased him down and kill him when Sephiroth was trying to run away with Jenova's head. Cloud flung his body and Jenova's head (which Sephiroth was grasping) into the Lifestream. That is the only physical part of her body he was able to take into the lifestream which allowed his consciousness to corrupt the lifestream and teleport back into the crater. The next time you see Sephiroth he is cut in half and in crystal (the part where Cloud gives him the Black Materia). Her body was kept alive by Shinra to harvest and test with. Once Sephiroth removed her head (before the original game but referenced in flashbacks to the Nibelheim reactor incident 5 years ago) they put a measure to keep her body alive with that plate thing inside the tank on her neck. In the original game we don't know Jenovaroth's actions but he clearly went into Hojo's lab and Shinra headquarters and slaughtered just about everyone leaving a Katana in President Shinra. It is entirely possible they managed to get part of her body to reconstitute further the appearance of Sephiroth. In the original game Sephiroth morphed into Jenova in the cargo hold (the first Jenova fight) and he didn't have her head then either. I see this remake as a way to "explain" how that was able to happen and what exactly Jenovaroth was up to in Midgar that wasn't covered by the original. I'm happy so far with the changes as the original is not erased and we can still play it in it's entirety. I'm happy they are not going to rely on Crisis Core or Dirge of Cerberus to fill in the gaps but double down and retell the story. Believe it or not I'm looking forward to meeting Roche and figure out what he's up to and why he's important to include. We will also see the main AVALANCHE group Barrett broke off from that is mentioned in other media. We also have more Wutai in the main story when in the original it was just mentioned and you could completely skip if you failed to get Yuffie. It seems the world is more detailed and fleshed out. I'm really looking forward to it.
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Post by Badalight on Feb 5, 2020 21:47:08 GMT -5
Where in the game does it say it's the head doing the shape shifting? I'm pretty sure it's the main body. That's why throughout the game while you chase Sephiroth, he gradually drops pieces of the body down for the crew to fight. For example, on the cargo ship, he flies away and drops an arm.
If it were the head doing the shape shifting, we'd see Sephiroth carrying around Jenova's body the entire game. Go back to the part where Cloud remembers in full HOW Sephiroth died (It is in the dream sequence after the events of Mideel where both Tifa and Cloud fall into the lifestream after the first Weapon attack). Sephiroth (the real one) came out of the Nibelheim reactor staggering holding her head. He managed to defeat both Tifa and Zack but Cloud chased him down and kill him when Sephiroth was trying to run away with Jenova's head. Cloud flung his body and Jenova's head (which Sephiroth was grasping) into the Lifestream. That is the only physical part of her body he was able to take into the lifestream which allowed his consciousness to corrupt the lifestream and teleport back into the crater. The next time you see Sephiroth he is cut in half and in crystal (the part where Cloud gives him the Black Materia). Her body was kept alive by Shinra to harvest and test with. Once Sephiroth removed her head (before the original game but referenced in flashbacks to the Nibelheim reactor incident 5 years ago) they put a measure to keep her body alive with that plate thing inside the tank on her neck. In the original game we don't know Jenovaroth's actions but he clearly went into Hojo's lab and Shinra headquarters and slaughtered just about everyone leaving a Katana in President Shinra. It is entirely possible they managed to get part of her body to reconstitute further the appearance of Sephiroth. In the original game Sephiroth morphed into Jenova in the cargo hold (the first Jenova fight) and he didn't have her head then either. I see this remake as a way to "explain" how that was able to happen and what exactly Jenovaroth was up to in Midgar that wasn't covered by the original. I'm happy so far with the changes as the original is not erased and we can still play it in it's entirety. I'm happy they are not going to rely on Crisis Core or Dirge of Cerberus to fill in the gaps but double down and retell the story. Believe it or not I'm looking forward to meeting Roche and figure out what he's up to and why he's important to include. We will also see the main AVALANCHE group Barrett broke off from that is mentioned in other media. We also have more Wutai in the main story when in the original it was just mentioned and you could completely skip if you failed to get Yuffie. It seems the world is more detailed and fleshed out. I'm really looking forward to it. I know that Sephiroth takes Jenova's head. That's not my issue.
While we never get clarification on how Jenova's body gets out of the lab, I've never once seen anyone suggest Sephiroth broke the body out. It's always been assumed that Sephiroth takes control of the body itself and breaks out.
Sephiroth didn't morph into Jenova on the cargo ship. He very clearly flies away and drops Jenova's arm for them to fight. Was he just carrying around Jenova's arm? No, it's because the Sephiroth we are seeing is the Jenova body from Hojo's lab. He drops the arm because it's part of him. It just wouldn't make any sense for him to be the head.
My problem with the change is that it kind of breaks the story. If we are to assume that any individual piece of Jenova can be used for the shapeshifting (the head) that introduces a lot of problems. Are we to assume if we chop Jenova into little tiny pieces, we could have an army of Sephiroths? I mean, cloud has Jenova cells. Can he take control of Cloud and make him shapeshift into Sephiroth? I know he has some ability to control Cloud's actions, but the game is pretty explicit in showing that he can't control Cloud to the level of the other clones. So the amount of Jenova cells does have an affect on Sephiroth's abilities.
Again, I am totally not against changes to the story. I just need them to make sense. Perhaps they've changed a lot in order for the scene in the trailer to make sense in the context of the new game. That is possible. I'm just basing it off of how the story plays out in the original, and I also wouldn't be surprised for SE to accidentally introduce plot holes because they were forcing Sephiroth scenes into Midgar.
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arsenette
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Post by arsenette on Feb 6, 2020 13:25:32 GMT -5
Go back to the part where Cloud remembers in full HOW Sephiroth died (It is in the dream sequence after the events of Mideel where both Tifa and Cloud fall into the lifestream after the first Weapon attack). Sephiroth (the real one) came out of the Nibelheim reactor staggering holding her head. He managed to defeat both Tifa and Zack but Cloud chased him down and kill him when Sephiroth was trying to run away with Jenova's head. Cloud flung his body and Jenova's head (which Sephiroth was grasping) into the Lifestream. That is the only physical part of her body he was able to take into the lifestream which allowed his consciousness to corrupt the lifestream and teleport back into the crater. The next time you see Sephiroth he is cut in half and in crystal (the part where Cloud gives him the Black Materia). Her body was kept alive by Shinra to harvest and test with. Once Sephiroth removed her head (before the original game but referenced in flashbacks to the Nibelheim reactor incident 5 years ago) they put a measure to keep her body alive with that plate thing inside the tank on her neck. In the original game we don't know Jenovaroth's actions but he clearly went into Hojo's lab and Shinra headquarters and slaughtered just about everyone leaving a Katana in President Shinra. It is entirely possible they managed to get part of her body to reconstitute further the appearance of Sephiroth. In the original game Sephiroth morphed into Jenova in the cargo hold (the first Jenova fight) and he didn't have her head then either. I see this remake as a way to "explain" how that was able to happen and what exactly Jenovaroth was up to in Midgar that wasn't covered by the original. I'm happy so far with the changes as the original is not erased and we can still play it in it's entirety. I'm happy they are not going to rely on Crisis Core or Dirge of Cerberus to fill in the gaps but double down and retell the story. Believe it or not I'm looking forward to meeting Roche and figure out what he's up to and why he's important to include. We will also see the main AVALANCHE group Barrett broke off from that is mentioned in other media. We also have more Wutai in the main story when in the original it was just mentioned and you could completely skip if you failed to get Yuffie. It seems the world is more detailed and fleshed out. I'm really looking forward to it. I know that Sephiroth takes Jenova's head. That's not my issue.
While we never get clarification on how Jenova's body gets out of the lab, I've never once seen anyone suggest Sephiroth broke the body out. It's always been assumed that Sephiroth takes control of the body itself and breaks out.
Sephiroth didn't morph into Jenova on the cargo ship. He very clearly flies away and drops Jenova's arm for them to fight. Was he just carrying around Jenova's arm? No, it's because the Sephiroth we are seeing is the Jenova body from Hojo's lab. He drops the arm because it's part of him. It just wouldn't make any sense for him to be the head.
My problem with the change is that it kind of breaks the story. If we are to assume that any individual piece of Jenova can be used for the shapeshifting (the head) that introduces a lot of problems. Are we to assume if we chop Jenova into little tiny pieces, we could have an army of Sephiroths? I mean, cloud has Jenova cells. Can he take control of Cloud and make him shapeshift into Sephiroth? I know he has some ability to control Cloud's actions, but the game is pretty explicit in showing that he can't control Cloud to the level of the other clones. So the amount of Jenova cells does have an affect on Sephiroth's abilities.
Again, I am totally not against changes to the story. I just need them to make sense. Perhaps they've changed a lot in order for the scene in the trailer to make sense in the context of the new game. That is possible. I'm just basing it off of how the story plays out in the original, and I also wouldn't be surprised for SE to accidentally introduce plot holes because they were forcing Sephiroth scenes into Midgar. Oh don't misunderstand.. there's a ton of plot holes in the game. LOL My contention is that you have 2 facts wrong. 1 Cloud was NEVER a clone. He doesn't have a number nor was he created in a lab by Hojo. His memory problems due to extensive mako poisoning when he was in the tank alongside Zac caused him to have temporary amnesia. He was never a clone. He can only hear Zac because Zac is talking to him through the lifestream and since Cloud was saturated in it he has the ability to hear BOTH Zac and Sephiroth. Remember his memory problems came AFTER his fight with Sephiroth where he killed him and then after he was dropped in the tank in Shinra Mansion. Zac was able to break free and take Cloud to Midgar but he was completely out of it so when he came to he saw the sword, already dressed in First Class gear and thought he was Zac because he still had vivid memories of what happened in Nibelheim. Thanks to that uncertainty though by the powers of persuasion he was able to trick Cloud into doing a lot of stuff. Only when he got a hold of himself and reworked his memories of the truth (Thanks Tifa) in the lifestream did Sephiroth's hold finally broke.
2. "Sephiroth flying off and dropping her arm.." That was JENOVA the whole time. Sephiroth's body is cut in half in crystal in the Northern Crater right now. So he's not carrying anything. He's using the power of Jenova to manipulate the clones and others to get the black materia to reconstitute himself using his image and the power of Jenova. And it worked. Until Cloud gave Sephiroth the Black Materia you have been seeing Jenova the whole time. She dropped a monster from the physical being that's running around the planet right now under Sephiroth's will as a way to get what he wants. So whether it's the head or not, that's not Sephiroth.. that's Jenova. My guess on this front there's more of Hojo we aren't seeing and given they didn't show what he was up to either until almost the 3rd disk it is entirely possible he was helping his son. Remember he had a hypothesis that creating the clones would help revive Jenova.. and he was right. He didn't know that Sephiroth would be more powerful than her and literally take her over. That's why he was so happy to find that out in the end and chose to donate himself to the cause to help his son.
Thanks for explaining what you meant as a whole because I misunderstood what you meant. I'm leaving the rest to see how they fill the gap because not much is known about Jenova/Sephiroth until the 2nd disk and him BEING Jenova was the final fight reveal in the end in the 3rd disk. The fact that it is in the first part in Midgar is important because they are rewriting the WHOLE game by removing the story telling gimmick that was required for a single playthrough game. We don't need the reveal of Sephiroth/Jenova being the true antagonist of the game since his place in Videogame history is cemented even among gamers who never played the RPG. It's obvious to me seeing them add new bosses and stories that weren't in any form of 7 or it's spin offs, adding the dementors.. er.. (I think they are called watchmen of fate?) as a story component, moving the Sephiroth reveal WAY early, adding the Wutai war into the narrative when it was a side story and other stuff like this that we are in for a whole retelling. I'm sure more plot holes will emerge while other stuff will make a whole lot more sense. This is a Final Fantasy game after all and this is still Nomura we are talking about..
This remake as you obviously know is several problems at once. Satisfying the players who know the story for 23 years, new people who have no idea wtf FF7 was, new people who've never played a final fantasy rpg, and everyone who doesn't get to play the entirety of FF7 at once since they are breaking it down into parts. Each game has to be a self contained story even if it's a Part of a bigger narrative and since Sephiroth is a video game icon and integral to the story of 7's world it made sense we see him now.
It's fine that you are judging it against the original (so am I because I could only stomach the sidestories watching youtube videos of it because their gameplay sucked and I actually liked the Advent Children story even if it is years after the end of this game. I just think a couple crucial parts you are misremembering and that's the really important part. Who is Cloud and who is Sephiroth and who is Jenova.
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Post by Badalight on Feb 7, 2020 1:34:18 GMT -5
I know that Sephiroth takes Jenova's head. That's not my issue.
While we never get clarification on how Jenova's body gets out of the lab, I've never once seen anyone suggest Sephiroth broke the body out. It's always been assumed that Sephiroth takes control of the body itself and breaks out.
Sephiroth didn't morph into Jenova on the cargo ship. He very clearly flies away and drops Jenova's arm for them to fight. Was he just carrying around Jenova's arm? No, it's because the Sephiroth we are seeing is the Jenova body from Hojo's lab. He drops the arm because it's part of him. It just wouldn't make any sense for him to be the head.
My problem with the change is that it kind of breaks the story. If we are to assume that any individual piece of Jenova can be used for the shapeshifting (the head) that introduces a lot of problems. Are we to assume if we chop Jenova into little tiny pieces, we could have an army of Sephiroths? I mean, cloud has Jenova cells. Can he take control of Cloud and make him shapeshift into Sephiroth? I know he has some ability to control Cloud's actions, but the game is pretty explicit in showing that he can't control Cloud to the level of the other clones. So the amount of Jenova cells does have an affect on Sephiroth's abilities.
Again, I am totally not against changes to the story. I just need them to make sense. Perhaps they've changed a lot in order for the scene in the trailer to make sense in the context of the new game. That is possible. I'm just basing it off of how the story plays out in the original, and I also wouldn't be surprised for SE to accidentally introduce plot holes because they were forcing Sephiroth scenes into Midgar. Oh don't misunderstand.. there's a ton of plot holes in the game. LOL My contention is that you have 2 facts wrong. 1 Cloud was NEVER a clone. He doesn't have a number nor was he created in a lab by Hojo. His memory problems due to extensive mako poisoning when he was in the tank alongside Zac caused him to have temporary amnesia. He was never a clone. He can only hear Zac because Zac is talking to him through the lifestream and since Cloud was saturated in it he has the ability to hear BOTH Zac and Sephiroth. Remember his memory problems came AFTER his fight with Sephiroth where he killed him and then after he was dropped in the tank in Shinra Mansion. Zac was able to break free and take Cloud to Midgar but he was completely out of it so when he came to he saw the sword, already dressed in First Class gear and thought he was Zac because he still had vivid memories of what happened in Nibelheim. Thanks to that uncertainty though by the powers of persuasion he was able to trick Cloud into doing a lot of stuff. Only when he got a hold of himself and reworked his memories of the truth (Thanks Tifa) in the lifestream did Sephiroth's hold finally broke.
2. "Sephiroth flying off and dropping her arm.." That was JENOVA the whole time. Sephiroth's body is cut in half in crystal in the Northern Crater right now. So he's not carrying anything. He's using the power of Jenova to manipulate the clones and others to get the black materia to reconstitute himself using his image and the power of Jenova. And it worked. Until Cloud gave Sephiroth the Black Materia you have been seeing Jenova the whole time. She dropped a monster from the physical being that's running around the planet right now under Sephiroth's will as a way to get what he wants. So whether it's the head or not, that's not Sephiroth.. that's Jenova. My guess on this front there's more of Hojo we aren't seeing and given they didn't show what he was up to either until almost the 3rd disk it is entirely possible he was helping his son. Remember he had a hypothesis that creating the clones would help revive Jenova.. and he was right. He didn't know that Sephiroth would be more powerful than her and literally take her over. That's why he was so happy to find that out in the end and chose to donate himself to the cause to help his son.
Thanks for explaining what you meant as a whole because I misunderstood what you meant. I'm leaving the rest to see how they fill the gap because not much is known about Jenova/Sephiroth until the 2nd disk and him BEING Jenova was the final fight reveal in the end in the 3rd disk. The fact that it is in the first part in Midgar is important because they are rewriting the WHOLE game by removing the story telling gimmick that was required for a single playthrough game. We don't need the reveal of Sephiroth/Jenova being the true antagonist of the game since his place in Videogame history is cemented even among gamers who never played the RPG. It's obvious to me seeing them add new bosses and stories that weren't in any form of 7 or it's spin offs, adding the dementors.. er.. (I think they are called watchmen of fate?) as a story component, moving the Sephiroth reveal WAY early, adding the Wutai war into the narrative when it was a side story and other stuff like this that we are in for a whole retelling. I'm sure more plot holes will emerge while other stuff will make a whole lot more sense. This is a Final Fantasy game after all and this is still Nomura we are talking about..
This remake as you obviously know is several problems at once. Satisfying the players who know the story for 23 years, new people who have no idea wtf FF7 was, new people who've never played a final fantasy rpg, and everyone who doesn't get to play the entirety of FF7 at once since they are breaking it down into parts. Each game has to be a self contained story even if it's a Part of a bigger narrative and since Sephiroth is a video game icon and integral to the story of 7's world it made sense we see him now.
It's fine that you are judging it against the original (so am I because I could only stomach the sidestories watching youtube videos of it because their gameplay sucked and I actually liked the Advent Children story even if it is years after the end of this game. I just think a couple crucial parts you are misremembering and that's the really important part. Who is Cloud and who is Sephiroth and who is Jenova.
You're misunderstanding my posts. I know Sephiroth was Jenova. I've said that like 5 times, lol. I'm saying Sephiroth was Jenova's main body, not Jenova's head. I know Cloud wasn't literally a clone. Clone is just the term they use in the game though. I am very clear on those two points I know a lot of people get confused by that stuff, but I've played through this game roughly 10 million times. Butttttt... considering that we know Sephiroth is using Jenova's body at the start of the game, that's why I am confused on Sephiroth and Jenova's body appearing at the same time in the new trailer. Sephiroth is using Jenova's body, so how can he also be standing in front of the body? Real Sephiroth is at the north crater obviously, and disc 1 Sephiroth is Jenova's body. So who is this other Sephiroth that we see? Based on how the original game plays out, we shouldn't be able to see Jenova's main body and Sephiroth at the same time in disc 1.
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arsenette
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Rambling Rican
Posts: 16,617
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Post by arsenette on Feb 10, 2020 6:50:39 GMT -5
Oh don't misunderstand.. there's a ton of plot holes in the game. LOL My contention is that you have 2 facts wrong. 1 Cloud was NEVER a clone. He doesn't have a number nor was he created in a lab by Hojo. His memory problems due to extensive mako poisoning when he was in the tank alongside Zac caused him to have temporary amnesia. He was never a clone. He can only hear Zac because Zac is talking to him through the lifestream and since Cloud was saturated in it he has the ability to hear BOTH Zac and Sephiroth. Remember his memory problems came AFTER his fight with Sephiroth where he killed him and then after he was dropped in the tank in Shinra Mansion. Zac was able to break free and take Cloud to Midgar but he was completely out of it so when he came to he saw the sword, already dressed in First Class gear and thought he was Zac because he still had vivid memories of what happened in Nibelheim. Thanks to that uncertainty though by the powers of persuasion he was able to trick Cloud into doing a lot of stuff. Only when he got a hold of himself and reworked his memories of the truth (Thanks Tifa) in the lifestream did Sephiroth's hold finally broke.
2. "Sephiroth flying off and dropping her arm.." That was JENOVA the whole time. Sephiroth's body is cut in half in crystal in the Northern Crater right now. So he's not carrying anything. He's using the power of Jenova to manipulate the clones and others to get the black materia to reconstitute himself using his image and the power of Jenova. And it worked. Until Cloud gave Sephiroth the Black Materia you have been seeing Jenova the whole time. She dropped a monster from the physical being that's running around the planet right now under Sephiroth's will as a way to get what he wants. So whether it's the head or not, that's not Sephiroth.. that's Jenova. My guess on this front there's more of Hojo we aren't seeing and given they didn't show what he was up to either until almost the 3rd disk it is entirely possible he was helping his son. Remember he had a hypothesis that creating the clones would help revive Jenova.. and he was right. He didn't know that Sephiroth would be more powerful than her and literally take her over. That's why he was so happy to find that out in the end and chose to donate himself to the cause to help his son.
Thanks for explaining what you meant as a whole because I misunderstood what you meant. I'm leaving the rest to see how they fill the gap because not much is known about Jenova/Sephiroth until the 2nd disk and him BEING Jenova was the final fight reveal in the end in the 3rd disk. The fact that it is in the first part in Midgar is important because they are rewriting the WHOLE game by removing the story telling gimmick that was required for a single playthrough game. We don't need the reveal of Sephiroth/Jenova being the true antagonist of the game since his place in Videogame history is cemented even among gamers who never played the RPG. It's obvious to me seeing them add new bosses and stories that weren't in any form of 7 or it's spin offs, adding the dementors.. er.. (I think they are called watchmen of fate?) as a story component, moving the Sephiroth reveal WAY early, adding the Wutai war into the narrative when it was a side story and other stuff like this that we are in for a whole retelling. I'm sure more plot holes will emerge while other stuff will make a whole lot more sense. This is a Final Fantasy game after all and this is still Nomura we are talking about..
This remake as you obviously know is several problems at once. Satisfying the players who know the story for 23 years, new people who have no idea wtf FF7 was, new people who've never played a final fantasy rpg, and everyone who doesn't get to play the entirety of FF7 at once since they are breaking it down into parts. Each game has to be a self contained story even if it's a Part of a bigger narrative and since Sephiroth is a video game icon and integral to the story of 7's world it made sense we see him now.
It's fine that you are judging it against the original (so am I because I could only stomach the sidestories watching youtube videos of it because their gameplay sucked and I actually liked the Advent Children story even if it is years after the end of this game. I just think a couple crucial parts you are misremembering and that's the really important part. Who is Cloud and who is Sephiroth and who is Jenova.
You're misunderstanding my posts. I know Sephiroth was Jenova. I've said that like 5 times, lol. I'm saying Sephiroth was Jenova's main body, not Jenova's head. I know Cloud wasn't literally a clone. Clone is just the term they use in the game though. I am very clear on those two points I know a lot of people get confused by that stuff, but I've played through this game roughly 10 million times. Butttttt... considering that we know Sephiroth is using Jenova's body at the start of the game, that's why I am confused on Sephiroth and Jenova's body appearing at the same time in the new trailer. Sephiroth is using Jenova's body, so how can he also be standing in front of the body? Real Sephiroth is at the north crater obviously, and disc 1 Sephiroth is Jenova's body. So who is this other Sephiroth that we see? Based on how the original game plays out, we shouldn't be able to see Jenova's main body and Sephiroth at the same time in disc 1. What specific parts of her body is irrelevant considering that Sephiroth was created WITH Jenova's cells all along independent of what the current state of Jenova was.
Clone is a specific created being. So no you are misunderstanding that Cloud was controlled at any point at all. He isn't Hojo's experiment. That's why I was contesting the assumption that Cloud was controlled. He wasn't.
And you're the one that's confusing the "head" and "body" thing. Did you forget that Sephiroth is running around killing people in the same building that the body is in? I don't understand that you think it doesn't make sense that they are standing in the same room. Disc 1 - Jenova's body was next to Red XIII's cage thingie.. and Sephiroth was on a rampage killing the President and everyone else. Just because you didn't see it didn't mean it didn't happen in the original. That's why I'm wondering why you keep bringing up body parts..
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Post by Badalight on Feb 10, 2020 8:20:50 GMT -5
You're misunderstanding my posts. I know Sephiroth was Jenova. I've said that like 5 times, lol. I'm saying Sephiroth was Jenova's main body, not Jenova's head. I know Cloud wasn't literally a clone. Clone is just the term they use in the game though. I am very clear on those two points I know a lot of people get confused by that stuff, but I've played through this game roughly 10 million times. Butttttt... considering that we know Sephiroth is using Jenova's body at the start of the game, that's why I am confused on Sephiroth and Jenova's body appearing at the same time in the new trailer. Sephiroth is using Jenova's body, so how can he also be standing in front of the body? Real Sephiroth is at the north crater obviously, and disc 1 Sephiroth is Jenova's body. So who is this other Sephiroth that we see? Based on how the original game plays out, we shouldn't be able to see Jenova's main body and Sephiroth at the same time in disc 1. What specific parts of her body is irrelevant considering that Sephiroth was created WITH Jenova's cells all along independent of what the current state of Jenova was.
Clone is a specific created being. So no you are misunderstanding that Cloud was controlled at any point at all. He isn't Hojo's experiment. That's why I was contesting the assumption that Cloud was controlled. He wasn't.
And you're the one that's confusing the "head" and "body" thing. Did you forget that Sephiroth is running around killing people in the same building that the body is in? I don't understand that you think it doesn't make sense that they are standing in the same room. Disc 1 - Jenova's body was next to Red XIII's cage thingie.. and Sephiroth was on a rampage killing the President and everyone else. Just because you didn't see it didn't mean it didn't happen in the original. That's why I'm wondering why you keep bringing up body parts.. There is no Sephiroth or Jenovaroth that broke Jenova's body out. Jenova's body got out because Sephiroth took over the body itself and broke out from the inside, then went on the rampage. We know this is the case because the Sephiroth we see for the rest of the game is Jenova's body. That's why it drops Jenova's arm on the cargo ship for the team to fight. You're making it sound like there are three Sephiroth's - the one at the North Crater, Jenova's main body disguised as Sephiroth, and some magical 3rd one you're calling Jenovaroth.
Cloud was controlled by Sephiroth's influence at multiple times in the game, like at the temple of the ancients where he literally couldn't stop himself from handing over the black materia. Or when Aerith is praying and Cloud attempts to kill her.
Cloud 100% was experimented on, alongside Zach. That's why Hojo calls him a failed experiment multiple times throughout the game. He has jenova cells as well, which is why Sephiroth is able to influence him slightly. Like... the entire reason why Cloud is so obsessed with getting to Sephiroth is BECAUSE he is being controlled. He is part of the reunion theory. He's making his way to Sephiroth just like the other clones. Him being controlled is the main thread for the entire first half of the game. Furthermore, the final fight is symbolic of him finally breaking free from that control. He's not actually fighting Sephiroth.
Clone is a term the game uses (and it's the result of a bad translation) but that's the term everyone uses in ff7 discourse. I know he wasn't created in a lab. The other "Sephiroth clones" aren't "clones" either. They are survivors of the Nibelheim incident. I'm just using the term the game uses.
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arsenette
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Post by arsenette on Feb 11, 2020 9:53:06 GMT -5
What specific parts of her body is irrelevant considering that Sephiroth was created WITH Jenova's cells all along independent of what the current state of Jenova was.
Clone is a specific created being. So no you are misunderstanding that Cloud was controlled at any point at all. He isn't Hojo's experiment. That's why I was contesting the assumption that Cloud was controlled. He wasn't.
And you're the one that's confusing the "head" and "body" thing. Did you forget that Sephiroth is running around killing people in the same building that the body is in? I don't understand that you think it doesn't make sense that they are standing in the same room. Disc 1 - Jenova's body was next to Red XIII's cage thingie.. and Sephiroth was on a rampage killing the President and everyone else. Just because you didn't see it didn't mean it didn't happen in the original. That's why I'm wondering why you keep bringing up body parts.. There is no Sephiroth or Jenovaroth that broke Jenova's body out. Jenova's body got out because Sephiroth took over the body itself and broke out from the inside, then went on the rampage. We know this is the case because the Sephiroth we see for the rest of the game is Jenova's body. That's why it drops Jenova's arm on the cargo ship for the team to fight. You're making it sound like there are three Sephiroth's - the one at the North Crater, Jenova's main body disguised as Sephiroth, and some magical 3rd one you're calling Jenovaroth.
Cloud was controlled by Sephiroth's influence at multiple times in the game, like at the temple of the ancients where he literally couldn't stop himself from handing over the black materia. Or when Aerith is praying and Cloud attempts to kill her.
Cloud 100% was experimented on, alongside Zach. That's why Hojo calls him a failed experiment multiple times throughout the game. He has jenova cells as well, which is why Sephiroth is able to influence him slightly. Like... the entire reason why Cloud is so obsessed with getting to Sephiroth is BECAUSE he is being controlled. He is part of the reunion theory. He's making his way to Sephiroth just like the other clones. Him being controlled is the main thread for the entire first half of the game. Furthermore, the final fight is symbolic of him finally breaking free from that control. He's not actually fighting Sephiroth.
Clone is a term the game uses (and it's the result of a bad translation) but that's the term everyone uses in ff7 discourse. I know he wasn't created in a lab. The other "Sephiroth clones" aren't "clones" either. They are survivors of the Nibelheim incident. I'm just using the term the game uses.
We don't know HOW Sephiroth broke Jenova out. All we know is that they were in the same building in one form or another. Was it his consciousness, was it another clone he shapeshifted, was it a lab person, was it a monster, was it telepathy? We don't know. That's my contention. We only deduce that later when we realize that Jenova (both head and body) was controlled completely by Sephiroth's will much to Professor Hojo's shock (and glee). Sephiroth has been traveling the lifestream for years and gained strength and corrupted the lifestream. He has been able to assert control over anything even remotely touching Jenova's cells or the corrupted lifestream. But Cloud wasn't a created being for the sole purpose of the experiment. That's why his being able to understand that when he himself was in the lifestream was so pivotal. Also why he wasn't a first class soldier. Mako poisoning freaks people out and why the soldier process was so grueling. Heck none of the soldier's are clones either and they got the exact treatment.
You are correct on the term clone being a source of contention because of bad translation. Considering that Hojo has been creating clones well before Nibelheim (remember that Sephiroth reading about these experiments is what caused him to lose his mind and the whole Genesis war being the start of his questioning if he was a monster after all) is in addition to everything else going on. Remember Red XIII is also considered a "Clone" and he had no such problems that Cloud had and he could not be controlled nor did he "hear" Sephiroth. Cloud was recovering from Mako poisoning thanks to Hojo sticking him and Zack in the tank. Zack had no issues with it simply because he's already been infused with Jenova cells as part of the Soldier process and he's not a clone either! He wasn't controlled either. See my problem with the clone theory? Heck so was Vincent (who isn't even human anymore) and Lucrezia (who's a live crystal underwater) and they aren't clones either.
So hopefully this remake will clear that up a bit. Just having this one scene will go a long way to starting to explain what they did poorly the first time. I think this theory alone was a huge plot hole from the original 23 years ago. I'm looking forward to how they fix it or even change it to make it make better sense.
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Post by Badalight on Feb 11, 2020 18:07:26 GMT -5
There is no Sephiroth or Jenovaroth that broke Jenova's body out. Jenova's body got out because Sephiroth took over the body itself and broke out from the inside, then went on the rampage. We know this is the case because the Sephiroth we see for the rest of the game is Jenova's body. That's why it drops Jenova's arm on the cargo ship for the team to fight. You're making it sound like there are three Sephiroth's - the one at the North Crater, Jenova's main body disguised as Sephiroth, and some magical 3rd one you're calling Jenovaroth.
Cloud was controlled by Sephiroth's influence at multiple times in the game, like at the temple of the ancients where he literally couldn't stop himself from handing over the black materia. Or when Aerith is praying and Cloud attempts to kill her.
Cloud 100% was experimented on, alongside Zach. That's why Hojo calls him a failed experiment multiple times throughout the game. He has jenova cells as well, which is why Sephiroth is able to influence him slightly. Like... the entire reason why Cloud is so obsessed with getting to Sephiroth is BECAUSE he is being controlled. He is part of the reunion theory. He's making his way to Sephiroth just like the other clones. Him being controlled is the main thread for the entire first half of the game. Furthermore, the final fight is symbolic of him finally breaking free from that control. He's not actually fighting Sephiroth.
Clone is a term the game uses (and it's the result of a bad translation) but that's the term everyone uses in ff7 discourse. I know he wasn't created in a lab. The other "Sephiroth clones" aren't "clones" either. They are survivors of the Nibelheim incident. I'm just using the term the game uses.
We don't know HOW Sephiroth broke Jenova out. All we know is that they were in the same building in one form or another. Was it his consciousness, was it another clone he shapeshifted, was it a lab person, was it a monster, was it telepathy? We don't know. That's my contention. We only deduce that later when we realize that Jenova (both head and body) was controlled completely by Sephiroth's will much to Professor Hojo's shock (and glee). Sephiroth has been traveling the lifestream for years and gained strength and corrupted the lifestream. He has been able to assert control over anything even remotely touching Jenova's cells or the corrupted lifestream. But Cloud wasn't a created being for the sole purpose of the experiment. That's why his being able to understand that when he himself was in the lifestream was so pivotal. Also why he wasn't a first class soldier. Mako poisoning freaks people out and why the soldier process was so grueling. Heck none of the soldier's are clones either and they got the exact treatment.
You are correct on the term clone being a source of contention because of bad translation. Considering that Hojo has been creating clones well before Nibelheim (remember that Sephiroth reading about these experiments is what caused him to lose his mind and the whole Genesis war being the start of his questioning if he was a monster after all) is in addition to everything else going on. Remember Red XIII is also considered a "Clone" and he had no such problems that Cloud had and he could not be controlled nor did he "hear" Sephiroth. Cloud was recovering from Mako poisoning thanks to Hojo sticking him and Zack in the tank. Zack had no issues with it simply because he's already been infused with Jenova cells as part of the Soldier process and he's not a clone either! He wasn't controlled either. See my problem with the clone theory? Heck so was Vincent (who isn't even human anymore) and Lucrezia (who's a live crystal underwater) and they aren't clones either.
So hopefully this remake will clear that up a bit. Just having this one scene will go a long way to starting to explain what they did poorly the first time. I think this theory alone was a huge plot hole from the original 23 years ago. I'm looking forward to how they fix it or even change it to make it make better sense. You're right in that we never see how the body escapes. I just have issues with all of the explanations that aren't "Sephiroth took over the body and escaped from the inside". All other possibilities lead to some pretty major plot holes, so seeing that assumption not be the case in the remake is a sight of concern for me. Of course, they could change other parts of the story for it to fit, but I wager that won't be case and that they are mostly shoehorning Sephiroth scenes early on for the fanservice.
My only guess here is that his appearance is connected to Rosche. Perhaps Rosche has Jenova cells and Sephiroth takes over his body to break Jenova out. This is problematic though. If he can just materialize out of anyone with Jenova cells, he could make an army of Sephiroths. He could probably turn Cloud into Sephiroth. It's a messy route to go down.
It's probably not telepathy, an illusion, or mind tricks as the other characters seem to react to Sephiroth in the trailer.
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arsenette
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Post by arsenette on Feb 12, 2020 16:56:13 GMT -5
We don't know HOW Sephiroth broke Jenova out. All we know is that they were in the same building in one form or another. Was it his consciousness, was it another clone he shapeshifted, was it a lab person, was it a monster, was it telepathy? We don't know. That's my contention. We only deduce that later when we realize that Jenova (both head and body) was controlled completely by Sephiroth's will much to Professor Hojo's shock (and glee). Sephiroth has been traveling the lifestream for years and gained strength and corrupted the lifestream. He has been able to assert control over anything even remotely touching Jenova's cells or the corrupted lifestream. But Cloud wasn't a created being for the sole purpose of the experiment. That's why his being able to understand that when he himself was in the lifestream was so pivotal. Also why he wasn't a first class soldier. Mako poisoning freaks people out and why the soldier process was so grueling. Heck none of the soldier's are clones either and they got the exact treatment.
You are correct on the term clone being a source of contention because of bad translation. Considering that Hojo has been creating clones well before Nibelheim (remember that Sephiroth reading about these experiments is what caused him to lose his mind and the whole Genesis war being the start of his questioning if he was a monster after all) is in addition to everything else going on. Remember Red XIII is also considered a "Clone" and he had no such problems that Cloud had and he could not be controlled nor did he "hear" Sephiroth. Cloud was recovering from Mako poisoning thanks to Hojo sticking him and Zack in the tank. Zack had no issues with it simply because he's already been infused with Jenova cells as part of the Soldier process and he's not a clone either! He wasn't controlled either. See my problem with the clone theory? Heck so was Vincent (who isn't even human anymore) and Lucrezia (who's a live crystal underwater) and they aren't clones either.
So hopefully this remake will clear that up a bit. Just having this one scene will go a long way to starting to explain what they did poorly the first time. I think this theory alone was a huge plot hole from the original 23 years ago. I'm looking forward to how they fix it or even change it to make it make better sense. You're right in that we never see how the body escapes. I just have issues with all of the explanations that aren't "Sephiroth took over the body and escaped from the inside". All other possibilities lead to some pretty major plot holes, so seeing that assumption not be the case in the remake is a sight of concern for me. Of course, they could change other parts of the story for it to fit, but I wager that won't be case and that they are mostly shoehorning Sephiroth scenes early on for the fanservice.
My only guess here is that his appearance is connected to Rosche. Perhaps Rosche has Jenova cells and Sephiroth takes over his body to break Jenova out. This is problematic though. If he can just materialize out of anyone with Jenova cells, he could make an army of Sephiroths. He could probably turn Cloud into Sephiroth. It's a messy route to go down.
It's probably not telepathy, an illusion, or mind tricks as the other characters seem to react to Sephiroth in the trailer.
LOL I'd have a cow if it WAS telepathy. Why now? If he's stuck in the lifestream how is he going around the planet? Dead bodies? That makes no sense. I'm curious how they do it honestly because the concept of Sephiroth busting out Jenova because he needs her body is a huge plot hole because it's never explained how he GOT to Jenova unless there's a lifestream font somewhere we don't know about. One could deduce he came out of the mako reactor explosion (the one AVALANCHE exploded)... that's my theory so far. Would make sense given Mako IS the lifestream..
As for Roche I think that's separate considering he's a Soldier 3rd class.
As for army of sephiroths.. the clones are activated to return to Sephiroth in the northern crater.. so that's a thing already. As for creating more of himself.. that doesn't seem what he wants anyway in any of the games. He's too vain. LOL
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Post by Badalight on Feb 12, 2020 23:33:56 GMT -5
You're right in that we never see how the body escapes. I just have issues with all of the explanations that aren't "Sephiroth took over the body and escaped from the inside". All other possibilities lead to some pretty major plot holes, so seeing that assumption not be the case in the remake is a sight of concern for me. Of course, they could change other parts of the story for it to fit, but I wager that won't be case and that they are mostly shoehorning Sephiroth scenes early on for the fanservice.
My only guess here is that his appearance is connected to Rosche. Perhaps Rosche has Jenova cells and Sephiroth takes over his body to break Jenova out. This is problematic though. If he can just materialize out of anyone with Jenova cells, he could make an army of Sephiroths. He could probably turn Cloud into Sephiroth. It's a messy route to go down.
It's probably not telepathy, an illusion, or mind tricks as the other characters seem to react to Sephiroth in the trailer.
LOL I'd have a cow if it WAS telepathy. Why now? If he's stuck in the lifestream how is he going around the planet? Dead bodies? That makes no sense. I'm curious how they do it honestly because the concept of Sephiroth busting out Jenova because he needs her body is a huge plot hole because it's never explained how he GOT to Jenova unless there's a lifestream font somewhere we don't know about. One could deduce he came out of the mako reactor explosion (the one AVALANCHE exploded)... that's my theory so far. Would make sense given Mako IS the lifestream..
As for Roche I think that's separate considering he's a Soldier 3rd class.
As for army of sephiroths.. the clones are activated to return to Sephiroth in the northern crater.. so that's a thing already. As for creating more of himself.. that doesn't seem what he wants anyway in any of the games. He's too vain. LOL He chose that moment because Cloud was there, most likely to save him. Do you not find it weird Cloud's door was mysteriously open and pretty much all of his potential enemies in that building were killed while his group was left alive? Sephiroth's goal was for Cloud to give him the black materia by manipulating him. I don't think it's just "convenient timing". He needed to save Cloud and he also used it as an opportunity to get his attention and start his journey of chasing after Sephiroth.
He doesn't need to "get to Jenova" because he can control people from far away. He just takes control of Jenova's body when Cloud gets locked up. Simplest explanation with the fewest plot holes. I've never even seen someone argue for a different interpretation until this trailer came out.
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Post by HeXy on Feb 13, 2020 4:39:56 GMT -5
{Spoiler} Do we know why Sepphy took it upon himself to chop his mommys head off in the first place?
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arsenette
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Post by arsenette on Feb 13, 2020 12:16:21 GMT -5
LOL I'd have a cow if it WAS telepathy. Why now? If he's stuck in the lifestream how is he going around the planet? Dead bodies? That makes no sense. I'm curious how they do it honestly because the concept of Sephiroth busting out Jenova because he needs her body is a huge plot hole because it's never explained how he GOT to Jenova unless there's a lifestream font somewhere we don't know about. One could deduce he came out of the mako reactor explosion (the one AVALANCHE exploded)... that's my theory so far. Would make sense given Mako IS the lifestream..
As for Roche I think that's separate considering he's a Soldier 3rd class.
As for army of sephiroths.. the clones are activated to return to Sephiroth in the northern crater.. so that's a thing already. As for creating more of himself.. that doesn't seem what he wants anyway in any of the games. He's too vain. LOL He chose that moment because Cloud was there, most likely to save him. Do you not find it weird Cloud's door was mysteriously open and pretty much all of his potential enemies in that building were killed while his group was left alive? Sephiroth's goal was for Cloud to give him the black materia by manipulating him. I don't think it's just "convenient timing". He needed to save Cloud and he also used it as an opportunity to get his attention and start his journey of chasing after Sephiroth.
He doesn't need to "get to Jenova" because he can control people from far away. He just takes control of Jenova's body when Cloud gets locked up. Simplest explanation with the fewest plot holes. I've never even seen someone argue for a different interpretation until this trailer came out. Okay that literally makes no sense. If he opened the lock.. he would have waited for him on other side.. And not sure where you get the no one came out with another interpretation.. this is the first time I hear YOUR interpretation. LOL That has a bigger hole in it than anything else. Sephiroth needed the body and while he was there he murdered those whom he had a grudge with. If he knew Cloud was there he would have killed him while he had the chance. Considering that literally every other time "they" met he tried to murder him. Sephiroth was surprised this dude is still kicking.. {Spoiler} Do we know why Sepphy took it upon himself to chop his mommys head off in the first place? My own head canon is that he wanted to get that mask thing off her head to see her face. He did. Then the 2 fights happened afterwards (Zack then Cloud) with Cloud mortally wounding him so he escaped with what he could and it ended up being her head. And to be fair.. Lucrezia is his mother. Jenova is just a virus.
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Post by Badalight on Feb 14, 2020 1:13:46 GMT -5
He chose that moment because Cloud was there, most likely to save him. Do you not find it weird Cloud's door was mysteriously open and pretty much all of his potential enemies in that building were killed while his group was left alive? Sephiroth's goal was for Cloud to give him the black materia by manipulating him. I don't think it's just "convenient timing". He needed to save Cloud and he also used it as an opportunity to get his attention and start his journey of chasing after Sephiroth.
He doesn't need to "get to Jenova" because he can control people from far away. He just takes control of Jenova's body when Cloud gets locked up. Simplest explanation with the fewest plot holes. I've never even seen someone argue for a different interpretation until this trailer came out. Okay that literally makes no sense. If he opened the lock.. he would have waited for him on other side.. And not sure where you get the no one came out with another interpretation.. this is the first time I hear YOUR interpretation. LOL That has a bigger hole in it than anything else. Sephiroth needed the body and while he was there he murdered those whom he had a grudge with. If he knew Cloud was there he would have killed him while he had the chance. Considering that literally every other time "they" met he tried to murder him. Sephiroth was surprised this dude is still kicking.. {Spoiler} Do we know why Sepphy took it upon himself to chop his mommys head off in the first place? My own head canon is that he wanted to get that mask thing off her head to see her face. He did. Then the 2 fights happened afterwards (Zack then Cloud) with Cloud mortally wounding him so he escaped with what he could and it ended up being her head. And to be fair.. Lucrezia is his mother. Jenova is just a virus. So Cloud's door is somehow open and magically he and his friends are the only people who survived? This all conveniently happens while Cloud is there? Even though you claim Sephiroth wants him dead? How does that make any sense? Oops. He must've totally missed them on accident as he murdered guards three feet away. Seems like the kind of mistake Sephiroth would make. The entire first part of the game is Sephiroth manipulating Cloud in order to get the black materia. He does not want him dead at that point. To say otherwise is misrepresenting Sephiroth's motivations entirely. He had plenty of chances to kill Cloud and he chose not to.
I tried to look for other people on the internet with your same interpretation and came up empty.
Occam's razor here. Jenova breaking itself out (while being controlled by Sephiroth) and freeing Cloud by far makes the most sense. Gets rid of all of the plot holes you bring up. The timing isn't convenient because it happens due to Cloud being there, not just randomly. Cloud doesn't magically survive because Sephiroth missed him, he survives because Sephiroth wants him alive. His door isn't opened magically, it's opened so cloud can escape and find the black materia as Sephiroth wants him to.
Let's put it this way... the temple of ancients would make zero sense if what I said wasn't the case. If Sephiroth can magically make himself appear without Jenova's body as you are implying (since you're saying he broke the body out somehow), then he wouldn't need Cloud and his crew to go to the temple of the ancients. It requires a sacrifice, which is why Sephiroth lead Cloud's team there. He was unable to get the black materia on his own due to this reason. That's why he was manipulating Cloud from the start.
As for the clone thing... that is the most confusing part of the game. There are only 12 numbered clones; the ones that were "successes". A success, in Hojo's mind, is a clone that would take part in the reunion theory. Ergo, the ones with numbers are people who had weak minds and succumbed to Jenova's (Sephiroth's) influence. That's why Hojo calls Cloud a failure. Zack would be considered a failure too. Soldiers are injected with Jenova cells, but this was done before Hojo's experiments on the Nibelheim survivors. The process is probably very different e.g. the amount of Jenova cells and the amount of time it takes. Their minds have not been broken by the injection of Jenova cells. That's why soldiers don't take part in the reunion theory. HOWEVER, we do see one Soldier that seems to be influenced by Sephiroth, the shopkeeper in Juunon. Midway through the game, his model changes to that of a Sephiroth clone and he states that he's not feeling well. To me, that means he is being affected by the reunion theory somewhat, but not enough to actually go to the northern crater. In that case, he'd also be classified as a failure.
Then you have Vincent. The game never states he was injected by Jenova cells, just that he was experimented on. Regardless, his mind would seem to be strong enough that he wouldn't take part in the reunion theory. As for his ability to transform, that seems to be a result of Chaos, not Jenova.
That leaves Red 13. He is a curious case because we know there are only 12 numbered clones. 13 comes after 12, so it would be very easy to assume Red 13 is the 13th successful clone. However, the Ultimania guide states the Red 13's number is part of a different experiment entirely and has nothing to do with the Nibelheim experiments. The fact that he is 13 is only a coincidence.
Anyway, Hojo's entire concept of success and failures is shattered when Cloud is the only clone to make it to the northern crater. He's the only true "success", despite not having a number.
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arsenette
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Post by arsenette on Feb 14, 2020 11:35:00 GMT -5
Aerith is the target.. not Cloud. She's the one with the White Materia AND she's a Cetra. We don't know who opened the doors. If the doors are electronically controlled who's to say it wasn't done by management trying to mount support? Or system failure? We don't know.
As for Sephiroth honing in on Cloud.. Sephiroth has underestimated him from the time he saw him not make first class and Cloud proceeded to kill him. They didn't even MEET until the cargo hold of the ship and he tried to murder EVERYONE there just like he did in Shinra HQ. So your theory of getting Cloud and company to help him doesn't make sense since every time they "met" he had no problems trying to kill him. Even your own theory of manipulating everyone of value, if Cloud was a failure then he didn't do his job nor was he a viable target to murder. It's not for the black materia since Sephiroth was goign after it and was using whoever was around to get it after he figured out what the mechanism was AND because he didn't have a body to sacrifice to the temple. Cait Sith being around to do it was the mechanism to get it. No one knew Cloud would get it so the idea that Sephiroth knew in Midgar that Cait Sith would sacrifice himself to GET the Black Materia and give it to Cloud is a HUGE leap of logic. HECK, that didn't open up to knowledge of said thing until much afterwards. Not even Cloud knew wtf was going on when standing in FRONT of it. The whole ancients thing didn't pop up until AFTER Midgar in Kalm. The story is being retold to fill in those gaps made by breaking this game into episodes. This is all new. Gonna have to disagree. The fact that we have diverging theories even after 23 years is proof to a lot of inconsistencies and their own tries at retcons and additions. If anything it makes me more interested in the current version they are pushing. I can't wait until April.. Gaaaaaaaaaaaah As for opening.. OMG I love this..
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Post by Badalight on Feb 14, 2020 12:49:06 GMT -5
Aerith is the target.. not Cloud. She's the one with the White Materia AND she's a Cetra. We don't know who opened the doors. If the doors are electronically controlled who's to say it wasn't done by management trying to mount support? Or system failure? We don't know.
As for Sephiroth honing in on Cloud.. Sephiroth has underestimated him from the time he saw him not make first class and Cloud proceeded to kill him. They didn't even MEET until the cargo hold of the ship and he tried to murder EVERYONE there just like he did in Shinra HQ. So your theory of getting Cloud and company to help him doesn't make sense since every time they "met" he had no problems trying to kill him. Even your own theory of manipulating everyone of value, if Cloud was a failure then he didn't do his job nor was he a viable target to murder. It's not for the black materia since Sephiroth was goign after it and was using whoever was around to get it after he figured out what the mechanism was AND because he didn't have a body to sacrifice to the temple. Cait Sith being around to do it was the mechanism to get it. No one knew Cloud would get it so the idea that Sephiroth knew in Midgar that Cait Sith would sacrifice himself to GET the Black Materia and give it to Cloud is a HUGE leap of logic. HECK, that didn't open up to knowledge of said thing until much afterwards. Not even Cloud knew wtf was going on when standing in FRONT of it. The whole ancients thing didn't pop up until AFTER Midgar in Kalm. The story is being retold to fill in those gaps made by breaking this game into episodes. This is all new. It's not that we have diverging theories, it's that you have some weird interpretation, lol. Look up anyone's discussion in regards to Jenova breaking out of the shinra mansion. You were making me feel like I was crazy so I was doing research, but I have not found a single other person that has the same interpretation as you. Seems like everyone is in agreeance that Jenova broke out from the inside. I mean, just look around. Everyone is very confused about the new trailer because we see Sephiroth and Jenova at the same time. If you can find other people with the same ideas as you, feel free to link me. I looked!
It makes literally zero sense from a storytelling perspective for all of these things to happen coincidentally. If that is the intention, that is some supremely bad writing, and I know Sakaguchi wouldn't pull something like that. It's left ambiguous at the time, but it's pretty easy to piece together by the end of the game. I still don't even understand how you think Sephiroth broke Jenova out. He just appears in the flesh and then runs back to the northern crater? He takes over some other body to do it? None of those theories make any sense. On the other hand, Jenova breaking itself out, freeing Cloud, killing everyone in Cloud's way, leaving a sword in the president to tempt Cloud, and then manipulating Cloud in order to get the black materia covers all of the plot holes. Makes perfect sense. With that interpretation it completely gets rid of the convenient timing. It explains why Cloud's door is open. It explains why Cloud is alive. Your theory leaves 3 gaping plot holes.
I never said Cloud was a target, but Cloud is the person Sephiroth is manipulating in order to get the black materia. Like, just go and watch the scenes at the temple of the ancients. Right before the final boss fight, Sephiroth comes and talks to Cloud. Right after their conversation, Cloud starts going insane and talking about the black materia. The group is confused and has to knock the sense back into him.
Of course Sephiroth doesn't know about Cait Sith. He could've just as easily controlled Cloud to make him do it though. Cait Sith wasn't needed. That just allowed for our heroes to make it out unscathed. Sephiroth's plan was to have Cloud do it. But Cloud is the reason they are chasing Sephiroth in the first place. He is obsessed with him because he is being affected by the reunion theory. He has to chase after him because he is being willed to do so. That's one of the biggest plot points in the game. I think you're misrembering some aspects of this game as you've stated Cloud wasn't experimented on (he 100% was) and you said Sephiroth never controls him (he very clearly controls him multiple times throughout the game). As well as some other things like you saying Vincent was injected by Jenova cells and Red 13 being a clone, neither of which are true.
I have no idea what you mean by this "if Cloud was a failure then he didn't do his job nor was he a viable target to murder". Cloud is only a "failure" in that his mind was strong enough to not be completely lost by Hojo's experimentation. The successful ones lost their minds and were given a number, and Cloud has no number. That's why Hojo calls him a failure. However, Cloud was the only one to make it to the North Crater, and thus the only person to succeed in the reunion theory. That's why Hojo later changes his mind by saying Cloud wasn't a failure after all. While Cloud was still affected by the experiment, he didn't completely go insane like the numbered clones.
It's just Hojo changing his mind on the definition of failure.
And I aint watching that video! I've seen too much already.
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arsenette
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Rambling Rican
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Post by arsenette on Feb 14, 2020 13:28:25 GMT -5
Aerith is the target.. not Cloud. She's the one with the White Materia AND she's a Cetra. We don't know who opened the doors. If the doors are electronically controlled who's to say it wasn't done by management trying to mount support? Or system failure? We don't know.
As for Sephiroth honing in on Cloud.. Sephiroth has underestimated him from the time he saw him not make first class and Cloud proceeded to kill him. They didn't even MEET until the cargo hold of the ship and he tried to murder EVERYONE there just like he did in Shinra HQ. So your theory of getting Cloud and company to help him doesn't make sense since every time they "met" he had no problems trying to kill him. Even your own theory of manipulating everyone of value, if Cloud was a failure then he didn't do his job nor was he a viable target to murder. It's not for the black materia since Sephiroth was goign after it and was using whoever was around to get it after he figured out what the mechanism was AND because he didn't have a body to sacrifice to the temple. Cait Sith being around to do it was the mechanism to get it. No one knew Cloud would get it so the idea that Sephiroth knew in Midgar that Cait Sith would sacrifice himself to GET the Black Materia and give it to Cloud is a HUGE leap of logic. HECK, that didn't open up to knowledge of said thing until much afterwards. Not even Cloud knew wtf was going on when standing in FRONT of it. The whole ancients thing didn't pop up until AFTER Midgar in Kalm. The story is being retold to fill in those gaps made by breaking this game into episodes. This is all new. It's not that we have diverging theories, it's that you have some weird interpretation, lol. Look up anyone's discussion in regards to Jenova breaking out of the shinra mansion. You were making me feel like I was crazy so I was doing research, but I have not found a single other person that has the same interpretation as you. Seems like everyone is in agreeance that Jenova broke out from the inside. I mean, just look around. Everyone is very confused about the new trailer because we see Sephiroth and Jenova at the same time. If you can find other people with the same ideas as you, feel free to link me. I looked!
It makes literally zero sense from a storytelling perspective for all of these things to happen coincidentally. If that is the intention, that is some supremely bad writing, and I know Sakaguchi wouldn't pull something like that. It's left ambiguous at the time, but it's pretty easy to piece together by the end of the game. I still don't even understand how you think Sephiroth broke Jenova out. He just appears in the flesh and then runs back to the northern crater? He takes over some other body to do it? None of those theories make any sense. On the other hand, Jenova breaking itself out, freeing Cloud, killing everyone in Cloud's way, leaving a sword in the president to tempt Cloud, and then manipulating Cloud in order to get the black materia covers all of the plot holes. Makes perfect sense. With that interpretation it completely gets rid of the convenient timing. It explains why Cloud's door is open. It explains why Cloud is alive. Your theory leaves 3 gaping plot holes.
I never said Cloud was a target, but Cloud is the person Sephiroth is manipulating in order to get the black materia. Like, just go and watch the scenes at the temple of the ancients. Right before the final boss fight, Sephiroth comes and talks to Cloud. Right after their conversation, Cloud starts going insane and talking about the black materia. The group is confused and has to knock the sense back into him.
Of course Sephiroth doesn't know about Cait Sith. He could've just as easily controlled Cloud to make him do it though. Cait Sith wasn't needed. That just allowed for our heroes to make it out unscathed. Sephiroth's plan was to have Cloud do it. But Cloud is the reason they are chasing Sephiroth in the first place. He is obsessed with him because he is being affected by the reunion theory. He has to chase after him because he is being willed to do so. That's one of the biggest plot points in the game. I think you're misrembering some aspects of this game as you've stated Cloud wasn't experimented on (he 100% was) and you said Sephiroth never controls him (he very clearly controls him multiple times throughout the game). As well as some other things like you saying Vincent was injected by Jenova cells and Red 13 being a clone, neither of which are true.
I have no idea what you mean by this "if Cloud was a failure then he didn't do his job nor was he a viable target to murder". Cloud is only a "failure" in that his mind was strong enough to not be completely lost by Hojo's experimentation. The successful ones lost their minds and were given a number, and Cloud has no number. That's why Hojo calls him a failure. However, Cloud was the only one to make it to the North Crater, and thus the only person to succeed in the reunion theory. That's why Hojo later changes his mind by saying Cloud wasn't a failure after all. While Cloud was still affected by the experiment, he didn't completely go insane like the numbered clones.
It's just Hojo changing his mind on the definition of failure.
And I aint watching that video! I've seen too much already. I can't even begin to break that apart.. you circled the wagon twice and you didn't even know it. LOL Oh well we are almost there where we finally see wtf happened in Shinra HQ that day. See the video.. it's basically Advent Children opening + Original opening with screenshots (that you have seen in motion) in motion. The music IS AMAZING!! Half the video you've seen in other trailers but now it's in context and it looks awesome with the appropriate mood and music. It's BEAUTIFUL!
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Post by Badalight on Feb 14, 2020 23:47:27 GMT -5
We won't see what happened because it's a different story Also, the Ultimania also seems to support me. "Upon heeding the call of the Reunion, the headless form of Jenova contained in the Shin-Ra building reawakens. It takes on the form of Sephiroth, murders President Shinra and leaves the city. Cloud and the others escape Midgar during the confusion and pursue Sephiroth. Rufus Shinra becomes the new president of the Shin-Ra Company."
This makes it pretty clear... it says Jenova woke up and killed the president.
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arsenette
Administrator
Rambling Rican
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Post by arsenette on Feb 15, 2020 14:35:27 GMT -5
We won't see what happened because it's a different story Also, the Ultimania also seems to support me. "Upon heeding the call of the Reunion, the headless form of Jenova contained in the Shin-Ra building reawakens. It takes on the form of Sephiroth, murders President Shinra and leaves the city. Cloud and the others escape Midgar during the confusion and pursue Sephiroth. Rufus Shinra becomes the new president of the Shin-Ra Company."
This makes it pretty clear... it says Jenova woke up and killed the president. We will considering that they have to explain it because so many theories exist. This is cut and paste from the top search from Google (Sephiroth is Jenova). This is the synopsis of the prevailing and dominant theory to explain everything.
"Throughout FF7 and AC Sephiroth is in control of Jenova, using it as he would his own body due to its shape-shifting powers. Outside of Bizzaro/Safer Sephiroth, it is always some part of Jenova in Sephiroth's form, making it not the "real" Sephiroth despite him being the one in control."
In the first link down the page it actually quotes the lines from Hojo explaining it was Sephiroth and NOT Jenova that busted out of the Shinra building. Here's the Cut and paste.
"It's flat out stated in game that Sephiroth is in control and the developers have stated it as well.
It is Sephiroth in control and Sephiroth's will controlling those with Jenova cells:
Hojo: "He's a Sephiroth clone I created after the real Sephiroth died five years ago. Jenova cells and Mako, with my knowledge and skills, have been combined with science and nature to bring him to life. ...I'm not wild about the failure part, but the Jenova Reunion Theory has now been proven. You see, even if Jenova's body is dismembered, it will eventually become one again. That's what is meant by Jenova's Reunion to start. Five years have passed, and now the Clones have began to return. I thought the Clones would begin to gather at Midgar where Jenova is stored. But my predictions were not entirely correct. Jenova itself began to move away from the Shinra Building. But being a genius that I am, I soon figured it out. You see it was all Sephiroth's doing. Sephiroth is not just content to diffuse his will into the Lifestream; he wants to manipulate the Clones itself."
Hojo: "Did you see it!! It's Sephiroth! So he IS here! This is perfect! Both Jenova's Reunion and Sephiroth's will! They won't be diffused into the Lifestream, but gathered here! Mwa, haa, ha,......"
Cloud: "I'm physically built like someone in SOLDIER. Hojo's plan to clone Sephiroth wasn't that difficult. It was just the same procedure they use when creating members of SOLDIER. You see, someone in SOLDIER isn't simply exposed to Mako energy. Their bodies are actually injected with Jenova cells...... For better or worse, only the strong can enter SOLDIER. It has nothing to do with Jenova Reunion. But weak people...... like me, get lost in the whole thing. The combination of Jenova cells, Sephiroth's strong will and my own weakness are what created me. Everyone knew that. I'm...... Cloud. ......the master of my own illusionary world. But I can't remain trapped in an illusion any more...... I'm going to live my life without pretending."
And Sephiroth is a normal person injected with Jenova cells in the womb:
Hojo: "Ha, ha, ha... I offered the woman with my child to Professor Gast's Jenova Project. When Sephiroth was still in the womb, we took the cells of Jenova... HA, HA, HA!!""
This is of course at the part where Cloud gives Sephiroth the black Materia at the northern crater but BEFORE he is thrown into the lifestream after Mideal so he doesn't know the whole story yet. But the concept of Sephiroth's will calling Jenova and she responded is false. He TOOK OVER her body. He needed it all the way to the end. Sephiroth's last words were talking about Jenova's body outliving it's usefulness. Jenova never reanimated by herself, Sephiroth did it. We just don't know HOW he did it. He needed a body since his was cut in half so he used Jenova (because of the cells he has and the connection to her directly) to do the business he wanted. Do you seriously think that Jenova woken up would allow herself to be taken over if she was in any state to do so? No, it was Sephiroth using the body and controlling every facet of her instead of just calling it's clones to him. Sephiroth possessed the body.. it's not Jenova or her will. Sephiroth (or what we call Jenovaroth because his body is not the one used but Jenova's shapeshifted) is the one that killed everyone in Shinra HQ.
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Post by Badalight on Feb 16, 2020 0:12:50 GMT -5
We won't see what happened because it's a different story Also, the Ultimania also seems to support me. "Upon heeding the call of the Reunion, the headless form of Jenova contained in the Shin-Ra building reawakens. It takes on the form of Sephiroth, murders President Shinra and leaves the city. Cloud and the others escape Midgar during the confusion and pursue Sephiroth. Rufus Shinra becomes the new president of the Shin-Ra Company."
This makes it pretty clear... it says Jenova woke up and killed the president. We will considering that they have to explain it because so many theories exist. This is cut and paste from the top search from Google (Sephiroth is Jenova). This is the synopsis of the prevailing and dominant theory to explain everything.
"Throughout FF7 and AC Sephiroth is in control of Jenova, using it as he would his own body due to its shape-shifting powers. Outside of Bizzaro/Safer Sephiroth, it is always some part of Jenova in Sephiroth's form, making it not the "real" Sephiroth despite him being the one in control."
In the first link down the page it actually quotes the lines from Hojo explaining it was Sephiroth and NOT Jenova that busted out of the Shinra building. Here's the Cut and paste.
"It's flat out stated in game that Sephiroth is in control and the developers have stated it as well.
It is Sephiroth in control and Sephiroth's will controlling those with Jenova cells:
Hojo: "He's a Sephiroth clone I created after the real Sephiroth died five years ago. Jenova cells and Mako, with my knowledge and skills, have been combined with science and nature to bring him to life. ...I'm not wild about the failure part, but the Jenova Reunion Theory has now been proven. You see, even if Jenova's body is dismembered, it will eventually become one again. That's what is meant by Jenova's Reunion to start. Five years have passed, and now the Clones have began to return. I thought the Clones would begin to gather at Midgar where Jenova is stored. But my predictions were not entirely correct. Jenova itself began to move away from the Shinra Building. But being a genius that I am, I soon figured it out. You see it was all Sephiroth's doing. Sephiroth is not just content to diffuse his will into the Lifestream; he wants to manipulate the Clones itself."
Hojo: "Did you see it!! It's Sephiroth! So he IS here! This is perfect! Both Jenova's Reunion and Sephiroth's will! They won't be diffused into the Lifestream, but gathered here! Mwa, haa, ha,......"
Cloud: "I'm physically built like someone in SOLDIER. Hojo's plan to clone Sephiroth wasn't that difficult. It was just the same procedure they use when creating members of SOLDIER. You see, someone in SOLDIER isn't simply exposed to Mako energy. Their bodies are actually injected with Jenova cells...... For better or worse, only the strong can enter SOLDIER. It has nothing to do with Jenova Reunion. But weak people...... like me, get lost in the whole thing. The combination of Jenova cells, Sephiroth's strong will and my own weakness are what created me. Everyone knew that. I'm...... Cloud. ......the master of my own illusionary world. But I can't remain trapped in an illusion any more...... I'm going to live my life without pretending."
And Sephiroth is a normal person injected with Jenova cells in the womb:
Hojo: "Ha, ha, ha... I offered the woman with my child to Professor Gast's Jenova Project. When Sephiroth was still in the womb, we took the cells of Jenova... HA, HA, HA!!""
This is of course at the part where Cloud gives Sephiroth the black Materia at the northern crater but BEFORE he is thrown into the lifestream after Mideal so he doesn't know the whole story yet. But the concept of Sephiroth's will calling Jenova and she responded is false. He TOOK OVER her body. He needed it all the way to the end. Sephiroth's last words were talking about Jenova's body outliving it's usefulness. Jenova never reanimated by herself, Sephiroth did it. We just don't know HOW he did it. He needed a body since his was cut in half so he used Jenova (because of the cells he has and the connection to her directly) to do the business he wanted. Do you seriously think that Jenova woken up would allow herself to be taken over if she was in any state to do so? No, it was Sephiroth using the body and controlling every facet of her instead of just calling it's clones to him. Sephiroth possessed the body.. it's not Jenova or her will. Sephiroth (or what we call Jenovaroth because his body is not the one used but Jenova's shapeshifted) is the one that killed everyone in Shinra HQ. Okay, you are reading past everything that I say. I know it's Sephiroth who is in control. I have said that about fourteen times. I'm saying he does not physically break Jenova out of the cell because he is in the northern crater. He starts the call of the reunion which is what prompts people to start going to the northern crater. Upon doing this, he takes over Jenova's body and breaks out from the inside chamber. This is exactly as described in the quote I took from the Ultimania.
"Upon heeding the call of the Reunion, the headless form of Jenova contained in the Shin-Ra building reawakens. It takes on the form of Sephiroth, murders President Shinra and leaves the city. Cloud and the others escape Midgar during the confusion and pursue Sephiroth. Rufus Shinra becomes the new president of the Shin-Ra Company."
And yes, the Ultimania also makes it crystal clear that Sephiroth was in control the entire time. Not once have I said this wasn't the case, lol. That was clear to me even as a seven year old.
What I am saying, and have been saying this entire time, is that there is no separate Sephiroth body that breaks Jenova out from the outside like we see in the trailer for the new game. He takes over Jenova's body and then breaks out of the cell from the inside.
His main body is at the northern crater the entire time. He's not running around Midgar. The only Sephiroth in Midgar is Jenova's body being controlled by Sephiroth. That's why the new trailer makes no sense. We shouldn't see Sephiroth and Jenova at the same time (unless it's an illusion).
On a different note, I've kept away from the leaks as much as possible. However, I listened to one of the leaked songs because it was getting a lot of controversy, and I agree with the criticism. It sounds like they are making all of the songs sound orchestral and doing away with all of the synth and industrial vibes of the original. I listened to the mako reactor theme which has none of the punch of the original song. It just feels spooky...
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