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Post by obakemono on Apr 14, 2009 22:31:02 GMT -5
That's true, and I think that's what he meant. I know that's what I mean when I say grip strength, I don't really mean it literally.
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Post by Oti on Apr 14, 2009 22:33:24 GMT -5
A lot of people don't realize they're using "strength" when they mean "endurance".
The third stage, for example, doesn't require an amazing amount of upper body strength. Endurance, on the other hand...
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Post by obakemono on Apr 14, 2009 22:41:03 GMT -5
Well there are different kinds of strength. You don't have to be able to bench 400 pounds to be considered strong.
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Post by Oti on Apr 15, 2009 12:15:26 GMT -5
Strength is strength. It is how much force your muscles can produce. That's all. There's only one kind of it.
You don't need to bench 400 lbs to be considered strong because the term "strong" is relative. Just like "easy", "hard", "light" and "heavy". I think doing a chin-up with an extra 50 lbs around my waist is "easy". That weight is "light" to me. Do you agree? Probably not. It's relative.
The third stage doesn't require that much strength. If you're strong enough to do a pull-up with ease, you're strong enough to get through the stage. It doesn't require that much strength. Even the obstacles that appear to, like the Devil's Steps, don't require that much strength. You need a great level of endurance, though, to MAINTAIN that strength.
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Post by Captain Obvious on Apr 15, 2009 12:28:03 GMT -5
I agree with your "Strength is strength" statement as you've explained it. However, you must consider location as well.
Strength in your arms is certainly going to be the first and foremost strength concern in the Third Stage, but it isn't the only concern. For one, "grip strength", that is to say the strength in your hands and/or fingers, is still strength, but it is fairll separate from arm strength.
A prime example is Paul Anthony Terek. His arm strength is quite impressive, but the second he gets on the Curtain Cling or Cliff Hanger, you can see his ability to hold up his own weight begin to fail not from his arms but from his fingers.
A similar argument can be made for lower body strength, et al. The significance with respect to the Third Stage is a bit less, though.
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Post by Oti on Apr 15, 2009 13:13:55 GMT -5
Strength in different areas of your body are not different kinds of strength, like you said above.
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Post by obakemono on Apr 15, 2009 13:27:31 GMT -5
The third stage doesn't require that much strength. If you're strong enough to do a pull-up with ease, you're strong enough to get through the stage. It doesn't require that much strength. Even the obstacles that appear to, like the Devil's Steps, don't require that much strength. You need a great level of endurance, though, to MAINTAIN that strength. That's a moot point because anyone with the endurance to pass the third stage is going to be able to do a hell of a lot of pull ups. You can't really have great endurance without also having good strength, although that's not reversible.
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Post by Badalight on Apr 15, 2009 15:09:46 GMT -5
The third stage doesn't require that much strength. If you're strong enough to do a pull-up with ease, you're strong enough to get through the stage. It doesn't require that much strength. Even the obstacles that appear to, like the Devil's Steps, don't require that much strength. You need a great level of endurance, though, to MAINTAIN that strength. The hardest obstacle strength wise, IMO, is the cliff-hanger. Most of the others tkae very little strength to do. You just need a whole lot of endurance and determination. That's why I said the 3rd stage would actually be beatable for me if the cliff-hanger was gone. I have pretty good endurance, but the main thing is my determination. If i actually made it to the 3rd stage there's no way I'd let go due to being tired, I'd hold on as long as I could. Someone would have to tear me down. Now, I guess I could loose simply from slipping, or missing the final jump, but besides that and the cliff-hanger I think I'd do well.
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Post by obakemono on Apr 15, 2009 15:16:14 GMT -5
That's why I said the 3rd stage would actually be beatable for me if the cliff-hanger was gone. I have pretty good endurance, but the main thing is my determination. If i actually made it to the 3rd stage there's no way I'd let go due to being tired, I'd hold on as long as I could. Someone would have to tear me down. Barring Cliff Hanger jump failures, everyone holds on as long as they can. People don't fail because they're tired, their muscles, fingers, whatever, physically give out. Pretty good endurance won't cut it if someone like Takeda is done by the Hang Climb, and it took him years and years to even get to that point.
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Post by Badalight on Apr 15, 2009 15:23:45 GMT -5
No, they fail because they're tired. It's a spoiler but ---- is an example to prove my point.
It's not like their muscles suddenly stop working. They are tired, so they let go either because it's too much Pain or they don't have enough endurance to make it any further so they just drop.
Trust me, I've done a lot of ninja warrior training and I don't think I've ever gotten to a point where I couldn't hold on any longer, it just gets to the point where it's uncomfortable and tiring.
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Post by obakemono on Apr 15, 2009 16:51:30 GMT -5
That's not true at all. You're spectacularly underestimating it. The first point (and this is an official warning, don't purposely post spoilers) is valid, but it's the only one that comes to mind. Takeda in 21 got stuck on the Hang Climb for so long because he knew if he moved his hand, he was going to fall. Koji Yamada in 15 was so drained at the Pipe Slider he physically couldn't move it. Nagano in 21 didn't let go because he was in pain, he was right at the end, he let go because his fingers couldn't take it anymore. You're in pain by the third obstacle, by the Ring your entire arm is numbed and you can't feel your fingers.
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Post by Badalight on Apr 15, 2009 16:58:04 GMT -5
I know what you mean, but it doesn't mean you can't stay holding on...
Even if you're tired your arms don't just stop working, you have to let go.
Nagano in 21 was a bit different, he didn't let go because his fingers slipped off.
But Koji not being able to move on the pipe slider was from him being tired. Muscles don't just stop working.
As for the spoiler, I gave a heads up, made it small, and blended it with the background, so only if you were completely retarded would you even see it. But I digress.
And after I made that post, I went to try my cliffhanger. I always end up giving up before teh end, because it hurts my fingers. This time though, I tried going as long as I can despite the pain to see if I'd ever get to a opint where I didn't purposely let go.
It didn't happen, and I did it back and forth 3 times, and now I have blisters everywhere.
I hear the ice cream man driving down the road, ciao.
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Post by obakemono on Apr 15, 2009 17:04:43 GMT -5
As for the spoiler, I gave a heads up, made it small, and blended it with the background, so only if you were completely retarded would you even see it. But I digress. It was blue on a black background... No one who fails the third stage lets go on purpose.
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Post by Badalight on Apr 15, 2009 17:08:43 GMT -5
Well you're forum color is different then, and I didn't know you could change it.
Mine is blue and it was completely invisible on mine, my apologies.
Of course they let go on purpose, granted they don't just slip or miss the landing or something.
And what you say is true on obstacles that require a lot of strength, such as the body prop or cliffhanger.
But on something like the hang climbing, or pipe slider, it's due to them letting go simply from being to tired.
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Post by obakemono on Apr 15, 2009 17:13:17 GMT -5
Well you're forum color is different then, and I didn't know you could change it. Mine is blue and it was completely invisible on mine, my apologies Fair enough, there was no reason for me to be harsh about it anyway. I think we can agree to disagree on the question of grip. I think Koji in 15 let go on purpose because he couldn't move, but otherwise I don't think so. Look at Nakata, pretty much any of his runs. He keeps going until his hands forcibly slip off. No one who makes it to the third stage is going to let go because they're tired or in a bit of pain, they're going to keep going until it's impossible to go further.
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Post by Oti on Apr 15, 2009 22:51:27 GMT -5
Doing one pull-up easily is a feat of strength. Any more than that would be endurance, yes, but if you can do ONE EASILY, you have some good strength.
Not true. A lot of people have let go, not fallen, because they've lacked the determination to keep fighting. Takeda in 21 is a good example. You can tell because they're still holding on, they look down, then they let go.
No, they let go. They let go because they're tired, but they still let go. That's giving up, not failing, which, to me, is worse.
Trust me, I've done more training than you and I've trained to that point many times. It sounds like you lack intensity. Your muscles DO stop working temporarily. When you've pushed them to their limits, you simply can't use them. You can try as hard as you want, but you can't make them work. A good example is climbing. No matter how hard you try to keep going, you can't move anymore. Your hands won't close - you can't grasp the ledge. Your upper body is on fire and even when you try to simply pick yourself up to try to keep going, you can't go higher than half way up.
How do you know all that? Nagano in 21 looked like he slipped from the shock of the ring.
Also, I doubt you're in pain by the Devil's Steps. I could climb more than the first three obstacles with no break. A lot of other people probably could, too.
Exactly.
So, rock climbing for endurance training. Good idea.
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Post by Badalight on Apr 15, 2009 23:39:46 GMT -5
Oti: My point was people don't always push themselves until they can't go anymore, they drop when they are tired. You agreed with me yet disagreed with some of my posts aswell even though they all contained that same idea...
My point was not everyone goes until they fail, they give up.
Oba was disagreeing with that, saying everyone goes until it's impossible to go anymore and they slip off because it's impossible to continue holding on.
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Post by Oti on Apr 15, 2009 23:49:03 GMT -5
Well, maybe it's me, but you expressed those ideas poorly at times. It really didn't seem like you were saying the thing the whole time. Then again, I've already forgotten which of those quotes were yours.
While some people DO let go, others DO hang on until they just can't.
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Post by Badalight on Apr 16, 2009 0:12:00 GMT -5
Yes, but Oba was saying he could only think of 1 or 2 instacnes were people let go.
Either way, this is completely off topic.
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Post by Oti on Apr 16, 2009 12:10:37 GMT -5
As if you care about being off-topic.
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