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Post by Badalight on Feb 17, 2020 15:43:03 GMT -5
I don't know if they've been out for months... maybe unfinished versions. I know most stuff just got leaked in January because of the demo fiasco. Again, I'm not speaking about the soundtrack as a whole. I just agree with what I had been hearing that the new mako reactor theme is not good. Can't speak to literally any other song aside from the snippets I've heard in trailers. Are you sure you're listening to the real song btw? Can you link me to exactly what you're listening to? Youtube has a lot of fake songs and fan recreations. I've only seen one "official" one on youtube, which came from the leaks. Wanna make sure we're not listening to different things here. Because of no voice acting, we don't always know who is talking in Cloud's head since he has tons of voices. Sephiroth, Zack, and young Cloud all have lines. There are still debates about certain bits of dialogue that can't be attributed to anyone. But yes, it's safe to say Sephiroth's plan started before they got to the Shinra building. Sephiroth isn't running around though. He's just messing with people's minds from the northern crater, as he does for the rest of the game. I have no idea what you're talking about when you say "we don't know how he got there". He's at the northern crater. He can mess with people from a distance.
Anyway, I'm staying away from leaks but I heard from someone I trust (who has read the leaks) to not worry about the scene.
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Post by Badalight on Feb 17, 2020 6:10:46 GMT -5
Okay, you are reading past everything that I say. I know it's Sephiroth who is in control. I have said that about fourteen times. I'm saying he does not physically break Jenova out of the cell because he is in the northern crater. He starts the call of the reunion which is what prompts people to start going to the northern crater. Upon doing this, he takes over Jenova's body and breaks out from the inside chamber. This is exactly as described in the quote I took from the Ultimania.
"Upon heeding the call of the Reunion, the headless form of Jenova contained in the Shin-Ra building reawakens. It takes on the form of Sephiroth, murders President Shinra and leaves the city. Cloud and the others escape Midgar during the confusion and pursue Sephiroth. Rufus Shinra becomes the new president of the Shin-Ra Company."
And yes, the Ultimania also makes it crystal clear that Sephiroth was in control the entire time. Not once have I said this wasn't the case, lol. That was clear to me even as a seven year old.
What I am saying, and have been saying this entire time, is that there is no separate Sephiroth body that breaks Jenova out from the outside like we see in the trailer for the new game. He takes over Jenova's body and then breaks out of the cell from the inside.
His main body is at the northern crater the entire time. He's not running around Midgar. The only Sephiroth in Midgar is Jenova's body being controlled by Sephiroth. That's why the new trailer makes no sense. We shouldn't see Sephiroth and Jenova at the same time (unless it's an illusion).
On a different note, I've kept away from the leaks as much as possible. However, I listened to one of the leaked songs because it was getting a lot of controversy, and I agree with the criticism. It sounds like they are making all of the songs sound orchestral and doing away with all of the synth and industrial vibes of the original. I listened to the mako reactor theme which has none of the punch of the original song. It just feels spooky... We don't know.. that's what I've been saying the whole time. You kept saying Jenova got herself out and Jenova killed President Shinra. That's factually wrong. Jenova is not capable of doing either of those things. I know this may sound pedantic but phrasing matters. Jenova did not kill anyone in Shinra HQ. THAT was Sephiroth. There are people still now saying Jenova "heeded Sephiroth's call". That's demonstrably false and even Hojo said so because HE thought that is what happened. HE was there to see it. In fact did you notice he was still alive after that whole thing in his lab.
So the missing part is the actual Jenova body being commandeered by Sephiroth. There is zero information as to HOW that happened. So no there's no way that both bodies could not be in front of each other because we don't know HOW he did it. As for illusion? Absolutely. He can shape shift thanks to the knowledge he got from the head he took into the lifestream 5 years prior. This has confused so many people to the point where they had to add in Advent Children how Sephiroth managed to stay alive using the lifestream (again) to travel around. By your theory Kadaj, Loz and Yazoo could not have been Sephiroth either. They ARE Sephiroth. So no the idea that Sephiroth's form being in front of Jenova's body isn't incongruous. We just don't know how it happened in the original because they didn't show that scene. All the hints were thrown throughout the game because that was the big reveal. The reveal has already happened so to ignore that at this point is frankly pointless. Now they are showing it because a) it fills in time to pad out the Midgar section of the game and b) THIS is one of the biggest arguments for the past 2 decades.
For me being 25 and married when this game came out it was perfectly clear from the onset what was going on. That's probably why I'm still baffled at some things that are considered to be perfectly clear but somehow are confused by the younger generation. I think it has to do with perspective. I'm positive you see things very differently now being an adult and having your life experiences. It would be the same in a few years when someone starts to dissect another game and come up with a completely different narrative. You'd sit back and go "how the hell did they get there?" LOL If anything this particular game sparked a lot of discussion. So much so that they had to build more information in subsequent movies, books just to get some of the narrative fixed. I think part of the problem was they crammed a whole story and tried to sprinkle in some of the mystery to reveal later that they created some inconsistencies that is natural in that progress. I know FF7 is not a deep story. I know it has plot holes you can drive a tractor trailer through. I'm just surprised at what is still confusing people 23 years later. I would have thought the whole issue with the cetra and other aspects of that story not being complete would have been the sticking point. They originally were going to make Sephiroth Aerith's brother.. then scorned lover.. then nothing but they left bits and pieces scattered around to the point that they muddled that whole thing. But not understanding how powerful they made Sephiroth and what Jenova was/is in relation to him is still what baffles me.
Maybe in this iteration we can finally get some closure. I suspect they will muddy the waters again. It has to be because the story and it's execution was never this game's strongsuit. As much as I love it even I know how lacking it is in the story department. What we love is the atmosphere and the characters. Even if we argue about their backgrounds and their significance. No idea where you are getting the whole "controversy" with the soundtrack. Nothing I've heard in media about the songs says anything remotely negative. Considering that Uematsu himself made Hollow to fit the tone of the last scene of Part 1 not fit the rest of the soundtrack was on purpose. You know the end of the Midgar section without getting into spoilers and how that big reveal changed the course of the game. Why wouldn't it be foreboding? As for the rest of the soundtrack it's a remix of the original ADDING to the underlying soundtrack. The original music is completely in there. I actually suggest watching this breakdown note for note from a music composer about the the opening trailer (he does it with a lot of other tracks actually) so you see why they did what they did and WHAT they did. I love how he takes the time to explain the music theory behind it. It's a lot more than just a "reaction" to it. As for the Mako reactor song.. there are like 5 versions of that song depending on what you are doing.. The original had 1 version that played in the background. This one is dynamic (similar to Devil May Cry where more of the song is revealed depending on your style ranking). This one also has an entire orchestra behind it unlike the midi tracks that were shoved on game cd's. Even Uematsu's Black Mages album added to the original songs when you got a full orchestra behind it. Maybe because you've only seen/heard little trying to avoid spoilers? The whole album is not creepy/spooky. Only the parts where it needs to be based on spoilers of the story. I think you've just heard people be confused by the Sephiroth Jenova distinction for so long that you think I am also confused by it. I know it is Sephiroth controlling Jenova's body. I have never once been confused about that in my life, lol. I'm only saying Jenova so we can make the distinction between the physical body I am talking about. Jenova's body broke out from the inside - controlled by Sephiroth. The only thing I have an issue with is Sephiroth appearing in the trailer alongside Jenova. We don't have the context of that scene, but it shouldn't be possible. The only explanations are that it's an illusion or that Sephiroth can use Jenova's shape-shifting ability on anyone with Jenova cells... the latter explanation is very problematic in what it does to the story if that's the case.
I have no issue with Hollow. I was talking exclusively about the new version of the Mako reactor theme. The orchestrated sound will work wonders for some songs (Aerith's theme, one winged angel, cosmo canyon, etc). But I don't think it suits all of the songs in the game. There is an industrialized sound to those Midgar songs. The new version of Mako Reactor misses the mark and lacks the energy and punch of the original. The only reason I listened to that song in particular is because a lot of people were talking about it. I have no frame of reference for the rest of the soundtrack. I've listened to literally nothing else (on purpose). Just when people were discussing the new soundtrack, the mako reactor theme kept popping up as a song people were disappointed about.
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Post by Badalight on Feb 16, 2020 0:12:50 GMT -5
We won't see what happened because it's a different story Also, the Ultimania also seems to support me. "Upon heeding the call of the Reunion, the headless form of Jenova contained in the Shin-Ra building reawakens. It takes on the form of Sephiroth, murders President Shinra and leaves the city. Cloud and the others escape Midgar during the confusion and pursue Sephiroth. Rufus Shinra becomes the new president of the Shin-Ra Company."
This makes it pretty clear... it says Jenova woke up and killed the president. We will considering that they have to explain it because so many theories exist. This is cut and paste from the top search from Google (Sephiroth is Jenova). This is the synopsis of the prevailing and dominant theory to explain everything.
"Throughout FF7 and AC Sephiroth is in control of Jenova, using it as he would his own body due to its shape-shifting powers. Outside of Bizzaro/Safer Sephiroth, it is always some part of Jenova in Sephiroth's form, making it not the "real" Sephiroth despite him being the one in control."
In the first link down the page it actually quotes the lines from Hojo explaining it was Sephiroth and NOT Jenova that busted out of the Shinra building. Here's the Cut and paste.
"It's flat out stated in game that Sephiroth is in control and the developers have stated it as well.
It is Sephiroth in control and Sephiroth's will controlling those with Jenova cells:
Hojo: "He's a Sephiroth clone I created after the real Sephiroth died five years ago. Jenova cells and Mako, with my knowledge and skills, have been combined with science and nature to bring him to life. ...I'm not wild about the failure part, but the Jenova Reunion Theory has now been proven. You see, even if Jenova's body is dismembered, it will eventually become one again. That's what is meant by Jenova's Reunion to start. Five years have passed, and now the Clones have began to return. I thought the Clones would begin to gather at Midgar where Jenova is stored. But my predictions were not entirely correct. Jenova itself began to move away from the Shinra Building. But being a genius that I am, I soon figured it out. You see it was all Sephiroth's doing. Sephiroth is not just content to diffuse his will into the Lifestream; he wants to manipulate the Clones itself."
Hojo: "Did you see it!! It's Sephiroth! So he IS here! This is perfect! Both Jenova's Reunion and Sephiroth's will! They won't be diffused into the Lifestream, but gathered here! Mwa, haa, ha,......"
Cloud: "I'm physically built like someone in SOLDIER. Hojo's plan to clone Sephiroth wasn't that difficult. It was just the same procedure they use when creating members of SOLDIER. You see, someone in SOLDIER isn't simply exposed to Mako energy. Their bodies are actually injected with Jenova cells...... For better or worse, only the strong can enter SOLDIER. It has nothing to do with Jenova Reunion. But weak people...... like me, get lost in the whole thing. The combination of Jenova cells, Sephiroth's strong will and my own weakness are what created me. Everyone knew that. I'm...... Cloud. ......the master of my own illusionary world. But I can't remain trapped in an illusion any more...... I'm going to live my life without pretending."
And Sephiroth is a normal person injected with Jenova cells in the womb:
Hojo: "Ha, ha, ha... I offered the woman with my child to Professor Gast's Jenova Project. When Sephiroth was still in the womb, we took the cells of Jenova... HA, HA, HA!!""
This is of course at the part where Cloud gives Sephiroth the black Materia at the northern crater but BEFORE he is thrown into the lifestream after Mideal so he doesn't know the whole story yet. But the concept of Sephiroth's will calling Jenova and she responded is false. He TOOK OVER her body. He needed it all the way to the end. Sephiroth's last words were talking about Jenova's body outliving it's usefulness. Jenova never reanimated by herself, Sephiroth did it. We just don't know HOW he did it. He needed a body since his was cut in half so he used Jenova (because of the cells he has and the connection to her directly) to do the business he wanted. Do you seriously think that Jenova woken up would allow herself to be taken over if she was in any state to do so? No, it was Sephiroth using the body and controlling every facet of her instead of just calling it's clones to him. Sephiroth possessed the body.. it's not Jenova or her will. Sephiroth (or what we call Jenovaroth because his body is not the one used but Jenova's shapeshifted) is the one that killed everyone in Shinra HQ. Okay, you are reading past everything that I say. I know it's Sephiroth who is in control. I have said that about fourteen times. I'm saying he does not physically break Jenova out of the cell because he is in the northern crater. He starts the call of the reunion which is what prompts people to start going to the northern crater. Upon doing this, he takes over Jenova's body and breaks out from the inside chamber. This is exactly as described in the quote I took from the Ultimania.
"Upon heeding the call of the Reunion, the headless form of Jenova contained in the Shin-Ra building reawakens. It takes on the form of Sephiroth, murders President Shinra and leaves the city. Cloud and the others escape Midgar during the confusion and pursue Sephiroth. Rufus Shinra becomes the new president of the Shin-Ra Company."
And yes, the Ultimania also makes it crystal clear that Sephiroth was in control the entire time. Not once have I said this wasn't the case, lol. That was clear to me even as a seven year old.
What I am saying, and have been saying this entire time, is that there is no separate Sephiroth body that breaks Jenova out from the outside like we see in the trailer for the new game. He takes over Jenova's body and then breaks out of the cell from the inside.
His main body is at the northern crater the entire time. He's not running around Midgar. The only Sephiroth in Midgar is Jenova's body being controlled by Sephiroth. That's why the new trailer makes no sense. We shouldn't see Sephiroth and Jenova at the same time (unless it's an illusion).
On a different note, I've kept away from the leaks as much as possible. However, I listened to one of the leaked songs because it was getting a lot of controversy, and I agree with the criticism. It sounds like they are making all of the songs sound orchestral and doing away with all of the synth and industrial vibes of the original. I listened to the mako reactor theme which has none of the punch of the original song. It just feels spooky...
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Post by Badalight on Feb 14, 2020 23:47:27 GMT -5
We won't see what happened because it's a different story Also, the Ultimania also seems to support me. "Upon heeding the call of the Reunion, the headless form of Jenova contained in the Shin-Ra building reawakens. It takes on the form of Sephiroth, murders President Shinra and leaves the city. Cloud and the others escape Midgar during the confusion and pursue Sephiroth. Rufus Shinra becomes the new president of the Shin-Ra Company."
This makes it pretty clear... it says Jenova woke up and killed the president.
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Post by Badalight on Feb 14, 2020 12:49:06 GMT -5
Aerith is the target.. not Cloud. She's the one with the White Materia AND she's a Cetra. We don't know who opened the doors. If the doors are electronically controlled who's to say it wasn't done by management trying to mount support? Or system failure? We don't know.
As for Sephiroth honing in on Cloud.. Sephiroth has underestimated him from the time he saw him not make first class and Cloud proceeded to kill him. They didn't even MEET until the cargo hold of the ship and he tried to murder EVERYONE there just like he did in Shinra HQ. So your theory of getting Cloud and company to help him doesn't make sense since every time they "met" he had no problems trying to kill him. Even your own theory of manipulating everyone of value, if Cloud was a failure then he didn't do his job nor was he a viable target to murder. It's not for the black materia since Sephiroth was goign after it and was using whoever was around to get it after he figured out what the mechanism was AND because he didn't have a body to sacrifice to the temple. Cait Sith being around to do it was the mechanism to get it. No one knew Cloud would get it so the idea that Sephiroth knew in Midgar that Cait Sith would sacrifice himself to GET the Black Materia and give it to Cloud is a HUGE leap of logic. HECK, that didn't open up to knowledge of said thing until much afterwards. Not even Cloud knew wtf was going on when standing in FRONT of it. The whole ancients thing didn't pop up until AFTER Midgar in Kalm. The story is being retold to fill in those gaps made by breaking this game into episodes. This is all new. It's not that we have diverging theories, it's that you have some weird interpretation, lol. Look up anyone's discussion in regards to Jenova breaking out of the shinra mansion. You were making me feel like I was crazy so I was doing research, but I have not found a single other person that has the same interpretation as you. Seems like everyone is in agreeance that Jenova broke out from the inside. I mean, just look around. Everyone is very confused about the new trailer because we see Sephiroth and Jenova at the same time. If you can find other people with the same ideas as you, feel free to link me. I looked!
It makes literally zero sense from a storytelling perspective for all of these things to happen coincidentally. If that is the intention, that is some supremely bad writing, and I know Sakaguchi wouldn't pull something like that. It's left ambiguous at the time, but it's pretty easy to piece together by the end of the game. I still don't even understand how you think Sephiroth broke Jenova out. He just appears in the flesh and then runs back to the northern crater? He takes over some other body to do it? None of those theories make any sense. On the other hand, Jenova breaking itself out, freeing Cloud, killing everyone in Cloud's way, leaving a sword in the president to tempt Cloud, and then manipulating Cloud in order to get the black materia covers all of the plot holes. Makes perfect sense. With that interpretation it completely gets rid of the convenient timing. It explains why Cloud's door is open. It explains why Cloud is alive. Your theory leaves 3 gaping plot holes.
I never said Cloud was a target, but Cloud is the person Sephiroth is manipulating in order to get the black materia. Like, just go and watch the scenes at the temple of the ancients. Right before the final boss fight, Sephiroth comes and talks to Cloud. Right after their conversation, Cloud starts going insane and talking about the black materia. The group is confused and has to knock the sense back into him.
Of course Sephiroth doesn't know about Cait Sith. He could've just as easily controlled Cloud to make him do it though. Cait Sith wasn't needed. That just allowed for our heroes to make it out unscathed. Sephiroth's plan was to have Cloud do it. But Cloud is the reason they are chasing Sephiroth in the first place. He is obsessed with him because he is being affected by the reunion theory. He has to chase after him because he is being willed to do so. That's one of the biggest plot points in the game. I think you're misrembering some aspects of this game as you've stated Cloud wasn't experimented on (he 100% was) and you said Sephiroth never controls him (he very clearly controls him multiple times throughout the game). As well as some other things like you saying Vincent was injected by Jenova cells and Red 13 being a clone, neither of which are true.
I have no idea what you mean by this "if Cloud was a failure then he didn't do his job nor was he a viable target to murder". Cloud is only a "failure" in that his mind was strong enough to not be completely lost by Hojo's experimentation. The successful ones lost their minds and were given a number, and Cloud has no number. That's why Hojo calls him a failure. However, Cloud was the only one to make it to the North Crater, and thus the only person to succeed in the reunion theory. That's why Hojo later changes his mind by saying Cloud wasn't a failure after all. While Cloud was still affected by the experiment, he didn't completely go insane like the numbered clones.
It's just Hojo changing his mind on the definition of failure.
And I aint watching that video! I've seen too much already.
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Post by Badalight on Feb 14, 2020 1:13:46 GMT -5
He chose that moment because Cloud was there, most likely to save him. Do you not find it weird Cloud's door was mysteriously open and pretty much all of his potential enemies in that building were killed while his group was left alive? Sephiroth's goal was for Cloud to give him the black materia by manipulating him. I don't think it's just "convenient timing". He needed to save Cloud and he also used it as an opportunity to get his attention and start his journey of chasing after Sephiroth.
He doesn't need to "get to Jenova" because he can control people from far away. He just takes control of Jenova's body when Cloud gets locked up. Simplest explanation with the fewest plot holes. I've never even seen someone argue for a different interpretation until this trailer came out. Okay that literally makes no sense. If he opened the lock.. he would have waited for him on other side.. And not sure where you get the no one came out with another interpretation.. this is the first time I hear YOUR interpretation. LOL That has a bigger hole in it than anything else. Sephiroth needed the body and while he was there he murdered those whom he had a grudge with. If he knew Cloud was there he would have killed him while he had the chance. Considering that literally every other time "they" met he tried to murder him. Sephiroth was surprised this dude is still kicking.. {Spoiler} Do we know why Sepphy took it upon himself to chop his mommys head off in the first place? My own head canon is that he wanted to get that mask thing off her head to see her face. He did. Then the 2 fights happened afterwards (Zack then Cloud) with Cloud mortally wounding him so he escaped with what he could and it ended up being her head. And to be fair.. Lucrezia is his mother. Jenova is just a virus. So Cloud's door is somehow open and magically he and his friends are the only people who survived? This all conveniently happens while Cloud is there? Even though you claim Sephiroth wants him dead? How does that make any sense? Oops. He must've totally missed them on accident as he murdered guards three feet away. Seems like the kind of mistake Sephiroth would make. The entire first part of the game is Sephiroth manipulating Cloud in order to get the black materia. He does not want him dead at that point. To say otherwise is misrepresenting Sephiroth's motivations entirely. He had plenty of chances to kill Cloud and he chose not to.
I tried to look for other people on the internet with your same interpretation and came up empty.
Occam's razor here. Jenova breaking itself out (while being controlled by Sephiroth) and freeing Cloud by far makes the most sense. Gets rid of all of the plot holes you bring up. The timing isn't convenient because it happens due to Cloud being there, not just randomly. Cloud doesn't magically survive because Sephiroth missed him, he survives because Sephiroth wants him alive. His door isn't opened magically, it's opened so cloud can escape and find the black materia as Sephiroth wants him to.
Let's put it this way... the temple of ancients would make zero sense if what I said wasn't the case. If Sephiroth can magically make himself appear without Jenova's body as you are implying (since you're saying he broke the body out somehow), then he wouldn't need Cloud and his crew to go to the temple of the ancients. It requires a sacrifice, which is why Sephiroth lead Cloud's team there. He was unable to get the black materia on his own due to this reason. That's why he was manipulating Cloud from the start.
As for the clone thing... that is the most confusing part of the game. There are only 12 numbered clones; the ones that were "successes". A success, in Hojo's mind, is a clone that would take part in the reunion theory. Ergo, the ones with numbers are people who had weak minds and succumbed to Jenova's (Sephiroth's) influence. That's why Hojo calls Cloud a failure. Zack would be considered a failure too. Soldiers are injected with Jenova cells, but this was done before Hojo's experiments on the Nibelheim survivors. The process is probably very different e.g. the amount of Jenova cells and the amount of time it takes. Their minds have not been broken by the injection of Jenova cells. That's why soldiers don't take part in the reunion theory. HOWEVER, we do see one Soldier that seems to be influenced by Sephiroth, the shopkeeper in Juunon. Midway through the game, his model changes to that of a Sephiroth clone and he states that he's not feeling well. To me, that means he is being affected by the reunion theory somewhat, but not enough to actually go to the northern crater. In that case, he'd also be classified as a failure.
Then you have Vincent. The game never states he was injected by Jenova cells, just that he was experimented on. Regardless, his mind would seem to be strong enough that he wouldn't take part in the reunion theory. As for his ability to transform, that seems to be a result of Chaos, not Jenova.
That leaves Red 13. He is a curious case because we know there are only 12 numbered clones. 13 comes after 12, so it would be very easy to assume Red 13 is the 13th successful clone. However, the Ultimania guide states the Red 13's number is part of a different experiment entirely and has nothing to do with the Nibelheim experiments. The fact that he is 13 is only a coincidence.
Anyway, Hojo's entire concept of success and failures is shattered when Cloud is the only clone to make it to the northern crater. He's the only true "success", despite not having a number.
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Post by Badalight on Feb 12, 2020 23:33:56 GMT -5
You're right in that we never see how the body escapes. I just have issues with all of the explanations that aren't "Sephiroth took over the body and escaped from the inside". All other possibilities lead to some pretty major plot holes, so seeing that assumption not be the case in the remake is a sight of concern for me. Of course, they could change other parts of the story for it to fit, but I wager that won't be case and that they are mostly shoehorning Sephiroth scenes early on for the fanservice.
My only guess here is that his appearance is connected to Rosche. Perhaps Rosche has Jenova cells and Sephiroth takes over his body to break Jenova out. This is problematic though. If he can just materialize out of anyone with Jenova cells, he could make an army of Sephiroths. He could probably turn Cloud into Sephiroth. It's a messy route to go down.
It's probably not telepathy, an illusion, or mind tricks as the other characters seem to react to Sephiroth in the trailer.
LOL I'd have a cow if it WAS telepathy. Why now? If he's stuck in the lifestream how is he going around the planet? Dead bodies? That makes no sense. I'm curious how they do it honestly because the concept of Sephiroth busting out Jenova because he needs her body is a huge plot hole because it's never explained how he GOT to Jenova unless there's a lifestream font somewhere we don't know about. One could deduce he came out of the mako reactor explosion (the one AVALANCHE exploded)... that's my theory so far. Would make sense given Mako IS the lifestream..
As for Roche I think that's separate considering he's a Soldier 3rd class.
As for army of sephiroths.. the clones are activated to return to Sephiroth in the northern crater.. so that's a thing already. As for creating more of himself.. that doesn't seem what he wants anyway in any of the games. He's too vain. LOL He chose that moment because Cloud was there, most likely to save him. Do you not find it weird Cloud's door was mysteriously open and pretty much all of his potential enemies in that building were killed while his group was left alive? Sephiroth's goal was for Cloud to give him the black materia by manipulating him. I don't think it's just "convenient timing". He needed to save Cloud and he also used it as an opportunity to get his attention and start his journey of chasing after Sephiroth.
He doesn't need to "get to Jenova" because he can control people from far away. He just takes control of Jenova's body when Cloud gets locked up. Simplest explanation with the fewest plot holes. I've never even seen someone argue for a different interpretation until this trailer came out.
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Post by Badalight on Feb 11, 2020 18:07:26 GMT -5
There is no Sephiroth or Jenovaroth that broke Jenova's body out. Jenova's body got out because Sephiroth took over the body itself and broke out from the inside, then went on the rampage. We know this is the case because the Sephiroth we see for the rest of the game is Jenova's body. That's why it drops Jenova's arm on the cargo ship for the team to fight. You're making it sound like there are three Sephiroth's - the one at the North Crater, Jenova's main body disguised as Sephiroth, and some magical 3rd one you're calling Jenovaroth.
Cloud was controlled by Sephiroth's influence at multiple times in the game, like at the temple of the ancients where he literally couldn't stop himself from handing over the black materia. Or when Aerith is praying and Cloud attempts to kill her.
Cloud 100% was experimented on, alongside Zach. That's why Hojo calls him a failed experiment multiple times throughout the game. He has jenova cells as well, which is why Sephiroth is able to influence him slightly. Like... the entire reason why Cloud is so obsessed with getting to Sephiroth is BECAUSE he is being controlled. He is part of the reunion theory. He's making his way to Sephiroth just like the other clones. Him being controlled is the main thread for the entire first half of the game. Furthermore, the final fight is symbolic of him finally breaking free from that control. He's not actually fighting Sephiroth.
Clone is a term the game uses (and it's the result of a bad translation) but that's the term everyone uses in ff7 discourse. I know he wasn't created in a lab. The other "Sephiroth clones" aren't "clones" either. They are survivors of the Nibelheim incident. I'm just using the term the game uses.
We don't know HOW Sephiroth broke Jenova out. All we know is that they were in the same building in one form or another. Was it his consciousness, was it another clone he shapeshifted, was it a lab person, was it a monster, was it telepathy? We don't know. That's my contention. We only deduce that later when we realize that Jenova (both head and body) was controlled completely by Sephiroth's will much to Professor Hojo's shock (and glee). Sephiroth has been traveling the lifestream for years and gained strength and corrupted the lifestream. He has been able to assert control over anything even remotely touching Jenova's cells or the corrupted lifestream. But Cloud wasn't a created being for the sole purpose of the experiment. That's why his being able to understand that when he himself was in the lifestream was so pivotal. Also why he wasn't a first class soldier. Mako poisoning freaks people out and why the soldier process was so grueling. Heck none of the soldier's are clones either and they got the exact treatment.
You are correct on the term clone being a source of contention because of bad translation. Considering that Hojo has been creating clones well before Nibelheim (remember that Sephiroth reading about these experiments is what caused him to lose his mind and the whole Genesis war being the start of his questioning if he was a monster after all) is in addition to everything else going on. Remember Red XIII is also considered a "Clone" and he had no such problems that Cloud had and he could not be controlled nor did he "hear" Sephiroth. Cloud was recovering from Mako poisoning thanks to Hojo sticking him and Zack in the tank. Zack had no issues with it simply because he's already been infused with Jenova cells as part of the Soldier process and he's not a clone either! He wasn't controlled either. See my problem with the clone theory? Heck so was Vincent (who isn't even human anymore) and Lucrezia (who's a live crystal underwater) and they aren't clones either.
So hopefully this remake will clear that up a bit. Just having this one scene will go a long way to starting to explain what they did poorly the first time. I think this theory alone was a huge plot hole from the original 23 years ago. I'm looking forward to how they fix it or even change it to make it make better sense. You're right in that we never see how the body escapes. I just have issues with all of the explanations that aren't "Sephiroth took over the body and escaped from the inside". All other possibilities lead to some pretty major plot holes, so seeing that assumption not be the case in the remake is a sight of concern for me. Of course, they could change other parts of the story for it to fit, but I wager that won't be case and that they are mostly shoehorning Sephiroth scenes early on for the fanservice.
My only guess here is that his appearance is connected to Rosche. Perhaps Rosche has Jenova cells and Sephiroth takes over his body to break Jenova out. This is problematic though. If he can just materialize out of anyone with Jenova cells, he could make an army of Sephiroths. He could probably turn Cloud into Sephiroth. It's a messy route to go down.
It's probably not telepathy, an illusion, or mind tricks as the other characters seem to react to Sephiroth in the trailer.
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Post by Badalight on Feb 10, 2020 8:20:50 GMT -5
You're misunderstanding my posts. I know Sephiroth was Jenova. I've said that like 5 times, lol. I'm saying Sephiroth was Jenova's main body, not Jenova's head. I know Cloud wasn't literally a clone. Clone is just the term they use in the game though. I am very clear on those two points I know a lot of people get confused by that stuff, but I've played through this game roughly 10 million times. Butttttt... considering that we know Sephiroth is using Jenova's body at the start of the game, that's why I am confused on Sephiroth and Jenova's body appearing at the same time in the new trailer. Sephiroth is using Jenova's body, so how can he also be standing in front of the body? Real Sephiroth is at the north crater obviously, and disc 1 Sephiroth is Jenova's body. So who is this other Sephiroth that we see? Based on how the original game plays out, we shouldn't be able to see Jenova's main body and Sephiroth at the same time in disc 1. What specific parts of her body is irrelevant considering that Sephiroth was created WITH Jenova's cells all along independent of what the current state of Jenova was.
Clone is a specific created being. So no you are misunderstanding that Cloud was controlled at any point at all. He isn't Hojo's experiment. That's why I was contesting the assumption that Cloud was controlled. He wasn't.
And you're the one that's confusing the "head" and "body" thing. Did you forget that Sephiroth is running around killing people in the same building that the body is in? I don't understand that you think it doesn't make sense that they are standing in the same room. Disc 1 - Jenova's body was next to Red XIII's cage thingie.. and Sephiroth was on a rampage killing the President and everyone else. Just because you didn't see it didn't mean it didn't happen in the original. That's why I'm wondering why you keep bringing up body parts.. There is no Sephiroth or Jenovaroth that broke Jenova's body out. Jenova's body got out because Sephiroth took over the body itself and broke out from the inside, then went on the rampage. We know this is the case because the Sephiroth we see for the rest of the game is Jenova's body. That's why it drops Jenova's arm on the cargo ship for the team to fight. You're making it sound like there are three Sephiroth's - the one at the North Crater, Jenova's main body disguised as Sephiroth, and some magical 3rd one you're calling Jenovaroth.
Cloud was controlled by Sephiroth's influence at multiple times in the game, like at the temple of the ancients where he literally couldn't stop himself from handing over the black materia. Or when Aerith is praying and Cloud attempts to kill her.
Cloud 100% was experimented on, alongside Zach. That's why Hojo calls him a failed experiment multiple times throughout the game. He has jenova cells as well, which is why Sephiroth is able to influence him slightly. Like... the entire reason why Cloud is so obsessed with getting to Sephiroth is BECAUSE he is being controlled. He is part of the reunion theory. He's making his way to Sephiroth just like the other clones. Him being controlled is the main thread for the entire first half of the game. Furthermore, the final fight is symbolic of him finally breaking free from that control. He's not actually fighting Sephiroth.
Clone is a term the game uses (and it's the result of a bad translation) but that's the term everyone uses in ff7 discourse. I know he wasn't created in a lab. The other "Sephiroth clones" aren't "clones" either. They are survivors of the Nibelheim incident. I'm just using the term the game uses.
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Post by Badalight on Feb 7, 2020 1:34:18 GMT -5
I know that Sephiroth takes Jenova's head. That's not my issue.
While we never get clarification on how Jenova's body gets out of the lab, I've never once seen anyone suggest Sephiroth broke the body out. It's always been assumed that Sephiroth takes control of the body itself and breaks out.
Sephiroth didn't morph into Jenova on the cargo ship. He very clearly flies away and drops Jenova's arm for them to fight. Was he just carrying around Jenova's arm? No, it's because the Sephiroth we are seeing is the Jenova body from Hojo's lab. He drops the arm because it's part of him. It just wouldn't make any sense for him to be the head.
My problem with the change is that it kind of breaks the story. If we are to assume that any individual piece of Jenova can be used for the shapeshifting (the head) that introduces a lot of problems. Are we to assume if we chop Jenova into little tiny pieces, we could have an army of Sephiroths? I mean, cloud has Jenova cells. Can he take control of Cloud and make him shapeshift into Sephiroth? I know he has some ability to control Cloud's actions, but the game is pretty explicit in showing that he can't control Cloud to the level of the other clones. So the amount of Jenova cells does have an affect on Sephiroth's abilities.
Again, I am totally not against changes to the story. I just need them to make sense. Perhaps they've changed a lot in order for the scene in the trailer to make sense in the context of the new game. That is possible. I'm just basing it off of how the story plays out in the original, and I also wouldn't be surprised for SE to accidentally introduce plot holes because they were forcing Sephiroth scenes into Midgar. Oh don't misunderstand.. there's a ton of plot holes in the game. LOL My contention is that you have 2 facts wrong. 1 Cloud was NEVER a clone. He doesn't have a number nor was he created in a lab by Hojo. His memory problems due to extensive mako poisoning when he was in the tank alongside Zac caused him to have temporary amnesia. He was never a clone. He can only hear Zac because Zac is talking to him through the lifestream and since Cloud was saturated in it he has the ability to hear BOTH Zac and Sephiroth. Remember his memory problems came AFTER his fight with Sephiroth where he killed him and then after he was dropped in the tank in Shinra Mansion. Zac was able to break free and take Cloud to Midgar but he was completely out of it so when he came to he saw the sword, already dressed in First Class gear and thought he was Zac because he still had vivid memories of what happened in Nibelheim. Thanks to that uncertainty though by the powers of persuasion he was able to trick Cloud into doing a lot of stuff. Only when he got a hold of himself and reworked his memories of the truth (Thanks Tifa) in the lifestream did Sephiroth's hold finally broke.
2. "Sephiroth flying off and dropping her arm.." That was JENOVA the whole time. Sephiroth's body is cut in half in crystal in the Northern Crater right now. So he's not carrying anything. He's using the power of Jenova to manipulate the clones and others to get the black materia to reconstitute himself using his image and the power of Jenova. And it worked. Until Cloud gave Sephiroth the Black Materia you have been seeing Jenova the whole time. She dropped a monster from the physical being that's running around the planet right now under Sephiroth's will as a way to get what he wants. So whether it's the head or not, that's not Sephiroth.. that's Jenova. My guess on this front there's more of Hojo we aren't seeing and given they didn't show what he was up to either until almost the 3rd disk it is entirely possible he was helping his son. Remember he had a hypothesis that creating the clones would help revive Jenova.. and he was right. He didn't know that Sephiroth would be more powerful than her and literally take her over. That's why he was so happy to find that out in the end and chose to donate himself to the cause to help his son.
Thanks for explaining what you meant as a whole because I misunderstood what you meant. I'm leaving the rest to see how they fill the gap because not much is known about Jenova/Sephiroth until the 2nd disk and him BEING Jenova was the final fight reveal in the end in the 3rd disk. The fact that it is in the first part in Midgar is important because they are rewriting the WHOLE game by removing the story telling gimmick that was required for a single playthrough game. We don't need the reveal of Sephiroth/Jenova being the true antagonist of the game since his place in Videogame history is cemented even among gamers who never played the RPG. It's obvious to me seeing them add new bosses and stories that weren't in any form of 7 or it's spin offs, adding the dementors.. er.. (I think they are called watchmen of fate?) as a story component, moving the Sephiroth reveal WAY early, adding the Wutai war into the narrative when it was a side story and other stuff like this that we are in for a whole retelling. I'm sure more plot holes will emerge while other stuff will make a whole lot more sense. This is a Final Fantasy game after all and this is still Nomura we are talking about..
This remake as you obviously know is several problems at once. Satisfying the players who know the story for 23 years, new people who have no idea wtf FF7 was, new people who've never played a final fantasy rpg, and everyone who doesn't get to play the entirety of FF7 at once since they are breaking it down into parts. Each game has to be a self contained story even if it's a Part of a bigger narrative and since Sephiroth is a video game icon and integral to the story of 7's world it made sense we see him now.
It's fine that you are judging it against the original (so am I because I could only stomach the sidestories watching youtube videos of it because their gameplay sucked and I actually liked the Advent Children story even if it is years after the end of this game. I just think a couple crucial parts you are misremembering and that's the really important part. Who is Cloud and who is Sephiroth and who is Jenova.
You're misunderstanding my posts. I know Sephiroth was Jenova. I've said that like 5 times, lol. I'm saying Sephiroth was Jenova's main body, not Jenova's head. I know Cloud wasn't literally a clone. Clone is just the term they use in the game though. I am very clear on those two points I know a lot of people get confused by that stuff, but I've played through this game roughly 10 million times. Butttttt... considering that we know Sephiroth is using Jenova's body at the start of the game, that's why I am confused on Sephiroth and Jenova's body appearing at the same time in the new trailer. Sephiroth is using Jenova's body, so how can he also be standing in front of the body? Real Sephiroth is at the north crater obviously, and disc 1 Sephiroth is Jenova's body. So who is this other Sephiroth that we see? Based on how the original game plays out, we shouldn't be able to see Jenova's main body and Sephiroth at the same time in disc 1.
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Post by Badalight on Feb 5, 2020 21:47:08 GMT -5
Where in the game does it say it's the head doing the shape shifting? I'm pretty sure it's the main body. That's why throughout the game while you chase Sephiroth, he gradually drops pieces of the body down for the crew to fight. For example, on the cargo ship, he flies away and drops an arm.
If it were the head doing the shape shifting, we'd see Sephiroth carrying around Jenova's body the entire game. Go back to the part where Cloud remembers in full HOW Sephiroth died (It is in the dream sequence after the events of Mideel where both Tifa and Cloud fall into the lifestream after the first Weapon attack). Sephiroth (the real one) came out of the Nibelheim reactor staggering holding her head. He managed to defeat both Tifa and Zack but Cloud chased him down and kill him when Sephiroth was trying to run away with Jenova's head. Cloud flung his body and Jenova's head (which Sephiroth was grasping) into the Lifestream. That is the only physical part of her body he was able to take into the lifestream which allowed his consciousness to corrupt the lifestream and teleport back into the crater. The next time you see Sephiroth he is cut in half and in crystal (the part where Cloud gives him the Black Materia). Her body was kept alive by Shinra to harvest and test with. Once Sephiroth removed her head (before the original game but referenced in flashbacks to the Nibelheim reactor incident 5 years ago) they put a measure to keep her body alive with that plate thing inside the tank on her neck. In the original game we don't know Jenovaroth's actions but he clearly went into Hojo's lab and Shinra headquarters and slaughtered just about everyone leaving a Katana in President Shinra. It is entirely possible they managed to get part of her body to reconstitute further the appearance of Sephiroth. In the original game Sephiroth morphed into Jenova in the cargo hold (the first Jenova fight) and he didn't have her head then either. I see this remake as a way to "explain" how that was able to happen and what exactly Jenovaroth was up to in Midgar that wasn't covered by the original. I'm happy so far with the changes as the original is not erased and we can still play it in it's entirety. I'm happy they are not going to rely on Crisis Core or Dirge of Cerberus to fill in the gaps but double down and retell the story. Believe it or not I'm looking forward to meeting Roche and figure out what he's up to and why he's important to include. We will also see the main AVALANCHE group Barrett broke off from that is mentioned in other media. We also have more Wutai in the main story when in the original it was just mentioned and you could completely skip if you failed to get Yuffie. It seems the world is more detailed and fleshed out. I'm really looking forward to it. I know that Sephiroth takes Jenova's head. That's not my issue.
While we never get clarification on how Jenova's body gets out of the lab, I've never once seen anyone suggest Sephiroth broke the body out. It's always been assumed that Sephiroth takes control of the body itself and breaks out.
Sephiroth didn't morph into Jenova on the cargo ship. He very clearly flies away and drops Jenova's arm for them to fight. Was he just carrying around Jenova's arm? No, it's because the Sephiroth we are seeing is the Jenova body from Hojo's lab. He drops the arm because it's part of him. It just wouldn't make any sense for him to be the head.
My problem with the change is that it kind of breaks the story. If we are to assume that any individual piece of Jenova can be used for the shapeshifting (the head) that introduces a lot of problems. Are we to assume if we chop Jenova into little tiny pieces, we could have an army of Sephiroths? I mean, cloud has Jenova cells. Can he take control of Cloud and make him shapeshift into Sephiroth? I know he has some ability to control Cloud's actions, but the game is pretty explicit in showing that he can't control Cloud to the level of the other clones. So the amount of Jenova cells does have an affect on Sephiroth's abilities.
Again, I am totally not against changes to the story. I just need them to make sense. Perhaps they've changed a lot in order for the scene in the trailer to make sense in the context of the new game. That is possible. I'm just basing it off of how the story plays out in the original, and I also wouldn't be surprised for SE to accidentally introduce plot holes because they were forcing Sephiroth scenes into Midgar.
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Post by Badalight on Feb 4, 2020 20:21:33 GMT -5
Yeah, the Jenovaroth thing is confusing because at this point in the game, Sephiroth should be the Jenova that he is standing in front of. The fact that they both appear at the same time doesn't make sense based on how the story plays out in the original. Going into Spoiler territory.. The Sephiroth you see.. IS Jenova.. Sephiroth was killed by Cloud.. The thing he's standing in front of doesn't have a head.. That is in the Crater with the body of Sephiroth (which was the last thing he was able to do before falling into the lifestream after Cloud stabbed him)
Same as the original game, she is able to manifest herself in any form she wants and since Sephiroth is controlling her thoughts (due to sheer will) he uses the image of Sephiroth to manipulate others around her using their relationship with him). That's why you see the POOF where Sephiroth magically turns into Jenova. The body that is still harvested for her cells doesn't have a head but it kept alive in the tank while her head and conscious is the manifestation of Jenova and Sephiroth throughout the game. Only at the end does the reconstituted Sephiroth appear thanks to the Black Materia. Where in the game does it say it's the head doing the shape shifting? I'm pretty sure it's the main body. That's why throughout the game while you chase Sephiroth, he gradually drops pieces of the body down for the crew to fight. For example, on the cargo ship, he flies away and drops an arm.
If it were the head doing the shape shifting, we'd see Sephiroth carrying around Jenova's body the entire game.
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Post by Badalight on Feb 4, 2020 15:17:38 GMT -5
Yeah, the Jenovaroth thing is confusing because at this point in the game, Sephiroth should be the Jenova that he is standing in front of. The fact that they both appear at the same time doesn't make sense based on how the story plays out in the original.
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Post by Badalight on Feb 4, 2020 2:41:23 GMT -5
Pretty major changes to the story present in that new ff7 trailer.
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Post by Badalight on Sept 22, 2019 20:46:22 GMT -5
Ironically I think he said it around the time of advent children... I think he was implying some sort of alternate timeline. Not sure! Anyway, I will buy the game. I'm just keeping expectations low so I don't get disappointed. Kept them super low for KH3 and was still letdown. At the end of the day, it will be nice to see my favorite locales re-imagined. Can't wait for Cosmo Canyon and Golden Saucer. Though, I'm one of those people that love the pre-rendered backgrounds and find the low-poly models of original ff7 to be endearing. Giggles. I wouldn't be surprised if Kitase wanted that ending and got overruled by Squeenix staff to make a movie. I'm looking forward to both of those as well. Though that's going to be a long way off.. I'm actually more worried about that since the open world aspect of the game will be a thing.. in Midgar everything is self contained.. as soon as they leave the world opens up.. I'm scared how they are going to portray that or if they are going to get rid of the overworld in favor of FF15 driving a car.. but that's far off still.. gotta get past Part 1 first. I also wouldn't be surprised if in a PC version someone mods that back in. If they sell the low-poly models as outfit DLC... I might just have to buy them.
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Post by Badalight on Sept 22, 2019 0:37:59 GMT -5
I don't mind barret's characterization, I just think his VA sounds extremely forced. As for the ending, Kitase did say in an EGM interview that all of the humans died... so there's that. I don't mind either way, but the decision to not show the humans was deliberate. You can argue for either interpretation, but that's kind of missing the point. It was left up for interpretation which is why people speculated about it so much. If it wasn't ambiguous, we wouldn't be having this discussion right now. I think there are valid points for either interpretation, but that's neither here nor there. Again, I'm not arguing that they all died - rather it was up in the air and ultimately didn't matter since the goal was to save the planet, which they did. EGM: At the very end of FFVII, we see the epilogue to the whole story that takes place 500 years later, so really, you still have another 497 years’ worth of games and movies to fill in.... YK: Ha, maybe I’ll try to do that. In a way, I consider that epilogue to be the true happy ending of FFVII. Well, it’s a happy ending even though all the human beings are destroyed. [Laughs] Interesting about that EGM article (when was it published?) because all I read during AC was the opposite. Not from Kitase though so there's there as well. I'm curious now how they will end this version but we'd have to wait a decade for that. I don't mind the VA. It's very early on and they haven't had a chance to grow into the character yet. From what I hear of the VA's they said a few lines for the trailer and the trailer took a few of the lines that belong elsewhere to make the trailer story (which makes sense since a few people (like Reno) clearly weren't speaking during certain scenes). All in all it's a preference thing and I'm very happy we can change voices on the fly. All in all I am finally looking forward to it now that we have more options on gameplay (most likely because of the international outcry of turning a beloved turn-based JRPG into an action game) and they are expanding on the already established story. I already preordered and plan to buy the 1st Class. I'm actually excited seeing the TGS footage unlike other times I've seen the game. That's a far cry from 4 years ago where I was just going to watch the story on YouTube and boycott the game. Maybe with a proper beta you'll see if you want to play the game as well given your preference of modern gameplay over classic turn based. Considering it was never meant to be an action based game I'm okay with the hybrid they came up with to appease the younger audience. Ironically I think he said it around the time of advent children... I think he was implying some sort of alternate timeline. Not sure! Anyway, I will buy the game. I'm just keeping expectations low so I don't get disappointed. Kept them super low for KH3 and was still letdown. At the end of the day, it will be nice to see my favorite locales re-imagined. Can't wait for Cosmo Canyon and Golden Saucer. Though, I'm one of those people that love the pre-rendered backgrounds and find the low-poly models of original ff7 to be endearing.
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Post by Badalight on Sept 20, 2019 17:13:05 GMT -5
Oh, I am happy with Cloud's personification so far, I'm just worried is all. As for the English voices... some are fine, some are awful (hi Barett). I'll be playing in Japanese. FF7's ending was supposed to be ambiguous. A big part of that game was the party debating on whether holy was even a viable option since it was going to "get rid of everything bad for the planet". The party wonders if humanity would fall under that umbrella (because of things like Shinra literally using the planet's life as a power source) and that by activating holy to save the planet, they'd also be getting rid of all humans as well. They decide it's their only option, regardless. The ending shows us Nanaki specifically because he's the only non-human cast member. We don't know if humanity lived, but the planet survived. That's all that mattered. It's certainly possible that holy had no affect on humans, but the game leaves that question unanswered. There were a lot of debates prior to Advent Children on whether or not humanity survived. AC answers that question, which undercuts the ending in my opinion. I know that just because we don't see them doesn't mean they are dead, but the game itself establishes that holy might get rid of humanity and then decides not to show any humans after it had finished saving the planet. edit: I looked up the pertinent info, for reference. Bugenhagen: Holy... the ultimate White Magic. Magic that might stand against Meteor. Perhaps our last hope to save the planet from Meteor. If a soul seeking Holy reaches the planet, it will appear. Ho Ho Hoooo. Meteor, Weapon, everything will disappear. Perhaps, even ourselves. Cloud: Even us!? Bugenhagen: It is up to the planet to decide. What is best for the planet. What is bad for the planet. All that is bad will disappear. That is all. Ho Ho Hoooo. I wonder which we humans are? You said it yourself "might". Aerith knew. She heard what was decided by the planet. She was the one that called Holy and succeeded. If she didn't pray for it, Holy would not have appeared.. Bugenhagen didn't know and that's why he was saying perhaps so many times.. Aerith was a Cetra so she knew the whole time. After she was killed she continued to live in the lifestream along with Zack and was talking to the party the whole time. So no it's not ambiguous. The planet decided because Aerith heard exactly what was supposed to be done and they survived. Besides Midgar was the only city to be hit sparing the rest of the planet. Nanaki didn't live in Midgar. If anything it showed the status of Midgar siting in a corner of the continent untouched by anyone. Remember when Cloud and Tifa were swallowed up by the Lifestream before they appeared elsewhere. As for AC, it made perfect sense to me and IMO doesn't undercut the ending. AC was made BECAUSE people were confused about the ending that was perfectly clear. I remember distinctly the developers talking about that and their utter confusion as to why people thought everyone died... As for voices Barret's persona is now based off of his American release from 1997. It has always been different due to localization so I'm not upset that it's the foul mouthed blowhard zealot that was in the original game. If anything it fits better. Even Squeenix knows it which is why they made that decision. The original gameplay trailer with the more original VA just didn't fit what they were going for so that's why they recasted to redo Barret to the way he was known to us for 22 years. We have options these days to change voices on the fly so it's neither here nor there for me. I don't mind barret's characterization, I just think his VA sounds extremely forced. As for the ending, Kitase did say in an EGM interview that all of the humans died... so there's that. I don't mind either way, but the decision to not show the humans was deliberate. You can argue for either interpretation, but that's kind of missing the point. It was left up for interpretation which is why people speculated about it so much. If it wasn't ambiguous, we wouldn't be having this discussion right now. I think there are valid points for either interpretation, but that's neither here nor there. Again, I'm not arguing that they all died - rather it was up in the air and ultimately didn't matter since the goal was to save the planet, which they did. EGM: At the very end of FFVII, we see the epilogue to the whole story that takes place 500 years later, so really, you still have another 497 years’ worth of games and movies to fill in.... YK: Ha, maybe I’ll try to do that. In a way, I consider that epilogue to be the true happy ending of FFVII. Well, it’s a happy ending even though all the human beings are destroyed. [Laughs]
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Post by Badalight on Sept 19, 2019 17:57:29 GMT -5
I agree it looks a lot better than FF15's combat and it's nice that there are options for people (like you for example) that don't enjoy the action combat. As someone who has played and enjoyed really good action games (anything by Platinum) this combat looks painfully basic from what I've seen. It looks less like an action game and more like a turn based game that requires you to pound the x button for 10 seconds in between commands. That's not an action game. Dynasty Warriors which is universally hounded as having the most basic combat possible has more depth than FF7 remake from an action game perspective. KH3 and FF15 are also bad action games. (Not bad because they are action games, but bad because they are poorly made action games). I wasn't saying the voices in Cloud's head were gone. We won't know until we play the actual game. Buuuuut - I'm thinking those scenes are being replaced by those Sephiroth flashbacks. In the original FF7, it's ambiguous as to who those voices are a lot of the time. If the remake makes it obvious through actually showing the person or even through voice acting, that kind of ruins that aspect of the game. As for them incorporating stuff from Advent Children, Dirge of Cerberus, Crisis Core... god I hope not. I don't like any of those. Those are key examples of Nomura not knowing what he is doing. I'm not a fan of massive retcons or them clarifying a beautifully ambiguous ending. Also not a fan of the characterization that they have given Cloud in anything beyond the original. No one ever gave Cloud that "emo" label until Advent Children and KH came out. It makes me worried that his newer characterization is going to influence how he acts in the remake. Am I happy that they have reigned things in and started over rather than pushing out a product they weren't proud of? Yes, but the fact that they had to do it in the first place is emblematic of a larger problem that has been plaguing SE for over a decade now. Something is wrong with upper management because they have problems with every single game they release. KH3 had massive production issues, took way longer to make then expected, and then was rushed out the door incomplete. FF15 was the same issue. Took too long to make, then they rushed it out and tried to fix things with dlc, and then they canceled their dlc plans. FF14 was a disaster that they had to remake from the ground up. FF7 Remake they had to restart... FF13 had problems too. Naoki Yoshida is seemingly the only person they have with a good head on their shoulders. I really hope they give him FF16. And I know changes need to be made since they are turning a small portion of a game into a full game. I obviously know why they decided to show us Sephiroth this early on. It makes sense from a business perspective. I just think it could hurt the story telling overall. From the looks of it, we'll see him within the first hour of the game. But I'll hold judgement on that point until I actually play it. I'm just worried, is all. Hard to have any faith in SE at this point. KH3 was looking good prior to release and the actual product was terrible. I'm not going to lull myself into a false sense of security again. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twenty times... ya know. Absolutely hear ya. I was on the fence until last week. Now I'm happy with the direction they finally got into. I'll give them that much. Music is amazing and new with a splash of the old but reworked so it's a whole different experience. The English voice cast is completely redone to match the American release from way back when (that had no voices) so the new one will have it's own feel and perspective. Cloud is not emo like in Advent Children. He's an a** like he was in Midgar originally and snippy with everyone but Tifa. That is the original Cloud (in both Japanese and English) and not the Emo Advent Children one. Hell.. look at Reno and Rude. They have spines and actual physical prowess instead of the joke twins from the original and comic relief from AC. All and all I am looking forward to the story. The original is still there, updated to the point where a toaster could play it and is in every current system made. No one has to go dig up some PS1 and watch the blocky horror show. They aren't destroying the story either. They are starting fresh and looking into the story from a different pair of eyes and taking into account that the rest of us who have been playing for 22 years already know the ending. I'm looking at this as a whole new franchise. That's why the old Voice Actors still have jobs in the spin offs, etc. Remake is it's own spin on the same thing. While I hated the combat of Dirge and Crisis, it added a LOT of backstory for the events and characters that shaped the world. Hell.. from the trailer they added the Wutai war... remember that Yuffie and sidequest was COMPLETELY SKIPPABLE.. now they are making it part of the story which makes sense. I am assuming once we get to Shinra Mansion Vincent will also be non-skippable and important to the backstory of Sephiroth because of Lucrezia. Stuff like this is important to flesh out the story. FF7 is a great game and my favorite FF but it had a lot of plot holes that other games and media have fleshed out. I'm looking forward to having it make sense. Still, this is not SquareSoft. It's Squeenix. My only saving grace is Kitase. The original director of the game. Not only is he one of the only SquareSoft employees, he's the face of the franchise. So while Nomura gets the dirty work of doing the engine work and world building, it's Kitase who is hiring the men to keep him in check. Naoki's involvement was felt IMMEDIATELY. He's merciless and it shows. We have a damn schedule. TBH a couple of years ago I would have preferred Nomura be fired.. but now that no one else is touching it (I put a LOT of blame on DISNEY for KH3 because there were no SquareEnix characters in it. And 15 Nomura was outright fired from the project so there's nothing else we can talk about in terms of his involvement. Squeenix has been a problem for a looooong time.. but having SquareSoft back in control.. gives me hope. Battlewise it's a taste thing. I'm not a Platinum Games person (hands hurt too much playing their games) and it doesn't control like 15 of KH. I'm hoping an actual playable demo closer to launch will help dispel fears (including my own). I'm going into 7R expecting a brand new story with the shell that was 7's story. I want to be crushed for losing Jessie, Biggs and Wedge. I didn't feel a thing when the plate fell in any of my playthroughs. It was a reason to get out to the open world. Now.. they want us to know who was lost. I'm looking forward to that journey. P.S. Uhm.. FF7's ending is not ambiguous.. like.. at all. Midgar took one for the team and saved the planet as a result. Everyone else lived and Nanaki is proof since he was with the whole team when the crap hit the fan. I would suspect that the rest of the team also made it and lived their lives until their normal human deaths. Nanaki is just not human and thus the reason he was shown as an adult with his family. TBH it looked like they were setting up for a sequel that never came... FF has always been big picture so the ending made a whole lot of sense to me. Oh, I am happy with Cloud's personification so far, I'm just worried is all. As for the English voices... some are fine, some are awful (hi Barett). I'll be playing in Japanese. FF7's ending was supposed to be ambiguous. A big part of that game was the party debating on whether holy was even a viable option since it was going to "get rid of everything bad for the planet". The party wonders if humanity would fall under that umbrella (because of things like Shinra literally using the planet's life as a power source) and that by activating holy to save the planet, they'd also be getting rid of all humans as well. They decide it's their only option, regardless. The ending shows us Nanaki specifically because he's the only non-human cast member. We don't know if humanity lived, but the planet survived. That's all that mattered. It's certainly possible that holy had no affect on humans, but the game leaves that question unanswered. There were a lot of debates prior to Advent Children on whether or not humanity survived. AC answers that question, which undercuts the ending in my opinion. I know that just because we don't see them doesn't mean they are dead, but the game itself establishes that holy might get rid of humanity and then decides not to show any humans after it had finished saving the planet. edit: I looked up the pertinent info, for reference. Bugenhagen: Holy... the ultimate White Magic. Magic that might stand against Meteor. Perhaps our last hope to save the planet from Meteor. If a soul seeking Holy reaches the planet, it will appear. Ho Ho Hoooo. Meteor, Weapon, everything will disappear. Perhaps, even ourselves. Cloud: Even us!? Bugenhagen: It is up to the planet to decide. What is best for the planet. What is bad for the planet. All that is bad will disappear. That is all. Ho Ho Hoooo. I wonder which we humans are?
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Post by Badalight on Sept 19, 2019 14:37:04 GMT -5
I just don't think Nomura quite understands why certain aspects of the game were great. Here is one example. Sephiroth in the original game doesn't appear until after you get out of Midgar. You hear his name throughout the story and it builds and builds until he finally reveals himself. We then get a chance to see just how powerful he is through an in-game combat encounter - a perfect mixture of storytelling and gameplay. If the trailers are any indication, they are throwing that out the window and showing Sephiroth extremely early on. I'm not positive on this part, but it seems like those voices in cloud's head are just going to be replaced by scenes of Sephiroth monologuing... The other interesting part about those voices was it was always ambiguous as to who they were. Even after playing the game multiple times, it's never 100% clear on who is saying what. Is it Sephiroth? Is it young Cloud? It is Zack? Sometimes it's easier to tell than others... but it's not like they just cut to a scene of Sephiroth talking. Changes like those are what worry me. It also looks like they are changing the cross-dressing scene? Originally, Cloud does all of that to save Tifa, but the trailer seems to show that Tifa is with them during that whole debacle. I could be misinterpreting the trailer, but that's how it looked to me. I was never expecting a perfect 1:1 recreation of the original, and certain changes don't bother me in the slightest or are even improvements (President shinra showing the team a hologram of himself makes way more sense than him showing up in person and risking getting shot in the head by Barret). It just feels like they are leaning a bit too much on the side of... "LOOK! SEPHIROTH! REMEMBER HIM?! HE'S COOL RIGHT? OOOH REMEMBER THIS SCENE? YEAH THAT'S COOL ISN'T IT?" Just feels a bit tongue in cheek. I don't want the general feel of the story to be lost and I am worried that's the way it's going. I personally don't care about the combat. I love both turn based and action games. FF7 has my favorite turn based combat, but I'm fine with replacing it as long as the action oriented stuff is done well. Looks a tad bland from what I've seen though. Hopefully positioning is a big factor and switching between characters at opportune times adds some much needed depth. Considering FF15s combat... I don't have all that much faith. SE is not Platinum Games. Kitase, the original director is the main producer (and the one you see in all of the play testing and presentations so honestly I'm no longer worried. That and what I mentioned earlier that they hired a LOT of people who have FF7 as their favorite series of all time. Most are younger than me and are updating the mechanics and story elements that were present throughout the whole series (Crisis Core, Dirge of Cerberus and even elements eluded in Advent Children (which technically takes place a few years after the end of FF7 proper)). Yes Nomura did go on record saying he was terrified to direct this game because of the expectations and the fact that he didn't understand what people wanted. But he's not alone anymore and people who have heard the complaints have taken over. The original team was fired, engine changed, pulled in-house because the other company just didn't get it. Now they are owning up to is and so far what I see is spot on to what an actual REMAKE is. It's not just a slap of paint and rehash of a 22 year old game. It's a re-imagining of a classic game to incorporate the knowledge of it's older fanbase and serve as a launching platform for new fans who have only heard of FF7 from memes. As for Sephiroth.. might as well bring the elephant in the room and put him front and center so to speak. This is a Midgar game. Hell we don't know when the hell Part 2 will come out so for a stand alone adventure it has to have its own story. Besides.. WE know it because we played the game over and over. We grew up with him in every game from Dissidia to Smash Brothers to Kingdom Hearts. Ignoring his presence would be pointless. Entire generations grew up with the spin offs and never the core game because the mechanics were different and the artstyle was oldschool. He's only a figment of Cloud's imagination anyway at this point so seeing him at the end of this game as the true antagonist of the game (because the point of the Midgar arc is to dispel who the enemy actually is) doesn't seem troublesome to me at all. He's eluded to the whole first disk anyway in conversation so why not see him the way Cloud sees him? If anything it muddies the water because the original 10 hours of the original game will be more fleshed out and the Sector 7 catastrophe will mean so much more to people. If anything seeing Sephiroth at the end like that basically "end" the ones who let the plate drop will make new people WANT to know why the hell he's so damn powerful and why is Cloud even hallucinating about him. It may even drive people to seek out the original game to know why he's so important if Shinra was disposed of with a single slice of his blade. Besides.. they are adding Advent Children's geo stigma thing and Sephiroth is at the core of that thing. As for the voices.. we don't know honestly. I don't see why they would erase that because it comes into play in disk 3 heavily... Having flash backs to me doesn't preclude the voice in his head. IMO obviously. The scene with the 2 girls and cloud are right before the train graveyard.. so not at the same time as the whole Wall Market adventure. As for Tifa doing pull ups when she should be in the mansion, who knows.. maybe we have access to wall market between missions with Tifa. Would make sense because the false sense of security everyone had after the first "successful" mission. Remember that one of the more recent trailers also had Tifa talking to Cloud in 7th Heaven and that clearly takes place at a moment of calm between missions. I don't see why they can't just blow off steam at the Wall Market proving that they know the inhabitants before the famous "omg get Cloud a dress" episode. Overall I'm happy with the most recent changes to the game. Classic mode was JUST added to appease people like me who prefer not getting carpal tunnel every time I want to play for a long time. It also screams that this game will have unlockable difficulties. I do NOT get FF15 vibes. I refused to play that game and Kingdom Hearts since I hate both of those play styles. This looks like a good compromise. Remember that every time they show the combat something is tweaked the next time it's shown. From all reports from the demo they said this is the completely stripped down version. Combos and limit break linking aren't even in the game yet and they are fine tuning that. Right now they are gauging the fan reaction and so far it is overwhelmingly positive. Far cry from 4 years ago where they wanted Nomura's head on a platter for messing this up. I agree it looks a lot better than FF15's combat and it's nice that there are options for people (like you for example) that don't enjoy the action combat. As someone who has played and enjoyed really good action games (anything by Platinum) this combat looks painfully basic from what I've seen. It looks less like an action game and more like a turn based game that requires you to pound the x button for 10 seconds in between commands. That's not an action game. Dynasty Warriors which is universally hounded as having the most basic combat possible has more depth than FF7 remake from an action game perspective. KH3 and FF15 are also bad action games. (Not bad because they are action games, but bad because they are poorly made action games). I wasn't saying the voices in Cloud's head were gone. We won't know until we play the actual game. Buuuuut - I'm thinking those scenes are being replaced by those Sephiroth flashbacks. In the original FF7, it's ambiguous as to who those voices are a lot of the time. If the remake makes it obvious through actually showing the person or even through voice acting, that kind of ruins that aspect of the game. As for them incorporating stuff from Advent Children, Dirge of Cerberus, Crisis Core... god I hope not. I don't like any of those. Those are key examples of Nomura not knowing what he is doing. I'm not a fan of massive retcons or them clarifying a beautifully ambiguous ending. Also not a fan of the characterization that they have given Cloud in anything beyond the original. No one ever gave Cloud that "emo" label until Advent Children and KH came out. It makes me worried that his newer characterization is going to influence how he acts in the remake. Am I happy that they have reigned things in and started over rather than pushing out a product they weren't proud of? Yes, but the fact that they had to do it in the first place is emblematic of a larger problem that has been plaguing SE for over a decade now. Something is wrong with upper management because they have problems with every single game they release. KH3 had massive production issues, took way longer to make then expected, and then was rushed out the door incomplete. FF15 was the same issue. Took too long to make, then they rushed it out and tried to fix things with dlc, and then they canceled their dlc plans. FF14 was a disaster that they had to remake from the ground up. FF7 Remake they had to restart... FF13 had problems too. Naoki Yoshida is seemingly the only person they have with a good head on their shoulders. I really hope they give him FF16. And I know changes need to be made since they are turning a small portion of a game into a full game. I obviously know why they decided to show us Sephiroth this early on. It makes sense from a business perspective. I just think it could hurt the story telling overall. From the looks of it, we'll see him within the first hour of the game. But I'll hold judgement on that point until I actually play it. I'm just worried, is all. Hard to have any faith in SE at this point. KH3 was looking good prior to release and the actual product was terrible. I'm not going to lull myself into a false sense of security again. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twenty times... ya know.
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Post by Badalight on Sept 18, 2019 21:13:37 GMT -5
Everything that is being recreated faithfully looks great. Obviously a lot of care was taken to make those parts as close to the original as possible - scarily so in some places. But I am not excited for the changes or additions. Nomura has proven himself to be a terrible writer. None of the top brass at SE these days came from writing backgrounds. They were character designers, fight system managers, etc. They only took the place of the directors once the old guard all left at around the same time. Once upper management changed, the actually people with experience writing stories all left in tandem. From the stance of my own enjoyment, I don't really mind because I'll just roll my eyes and ignore that stuff, but it will have an affect on people who are playing ff7 for the first time and think this is how the original was. In either case, after the disaster that was ff15 and Kh3, this will probably be the last in-house produced SE game that I buy. (For the record, I'm not against changing/adding things in theory, but I'm not excited that Nomura is the one doing it.) I totally understand and quite frankly I was appalled at the fighting mechanics change which was the core of the game. Since then with a CRAPTON of feedback (especially after KH3 debacle) they have corrected course. Naoki Yoshida from FFXIV and Dragon Quest fame is directly OVER Nomura now and Kitase is breathing down his neck. Those 2 were not around for KH3 so I'm hopeful. Having played 7 when it launched (as an adult..) I have no illusions over the story. It was one of the lightest of the series (8 is still IMO the worst in story) so even if they add from any of the spin offs (Advent Children, Crisis Core, Dirge of Cerberus, etc.) but keeping the main story intact (which I am seeing) then it will be fine. The fundamental difference with 7 over something like KH3 is that no one knew the story of KH3 but they know 7 inside and out. Kitase hired a TON of people trying not to eff this up because 7 means too much to the franchise and no mistakes can be made with this sucker. Investors have already breathed down their neck and the press just about crucified Nomura over the initial presentation when it looked like a KH clone.. When you have a normally passive press screaming down their necks accusing Nomura of doing a KH/FF7 hybrid and declaring Squeenix to never touch FF6.. you know he struck a bad nerve. Since then it's been 4 years and they reworked the whole system, got a watchdog in Yoshida to keep Nomura on track and we have a damn release date that seems to be well on it's way to being real. I welcome additions so long as they don't retcon major things (which won't be on this disk anyway.. cough.. Aerith RIP) and that sweet new Classic mode they just added.. OMG.. THAT ALONE has made me excited. I don't like getting carpal tunnel smashing buttons while playing my JRPG's. That addition alone is proof to me that they are listing to the irate purists. I'm no longer dreading the release and look forward to it now. I better be.. I preordered the 1st class.. Edit: I just don't think Nomura quite understands why certain aspects of the game were great. Here is one example. Sephiroth in the original game doesn't appear until after you get out of Midgar. You hear his name throughout the story and it builds and builds until he finally reveals himself. We then get a chance to see just how powerful he is through an in-game combat encounter - a perfect mixture of storytelling and gameplay. If the trailers are any indication, they are throwing that out the window and showing Sephiroth extremely early on. I'm not positive on this part, but it seems like those voices in cloud's head are just going to be replaced by scenes of Sephiroth monologuing... The other interesting part about those voices was it was always ambiguous as to who they were. Even after playing the game multiple times, it's never 100% clear on who is saying what. Is it Sephiroth? Is it young Cloud? It is Zack? Sometimes it's easier to tell than others... but it's not like they just cut to a scene of Sephiroth talking. Changes like those are what worry me. It also looks like they are changing the cross-dressing scene? Originally, Cloud does all of that to save Tifa, but the trailer seems to show that Tifa is with them during that whole debacle. I could be misinterpreting the trailer, but that's how it looked to me. I was never expecting a perfect 1:1 recreation of the original, and certain changes don't bother me in the slightest or are even improvements (President shinra showing the team a hologram of himself makes way more sense than him showing up in person and risking getting shot in the head by Barret). It just feels like they are leaning a bit too much on the side of... "LOOK! SEPHIROTH! REMEMBER HIM?! HE'S COOL RIGHT? OOOH REMEMBER THIS SCENE? YEAH THAT'S COOL ISN'T IT?" Just feels a bit tongue in cheek. I don't want the general feel of the story to be lost and I am worried that's the way it's going. I personally don't care about the combat. I love both turn based and action games. FF7 has my favorite turn based combat, but I'm fine with replacing it as long as the action oriented stuff is done well. Looks a tad bland from what I've seen though. Hopefully positioning is a big factor and switching between characters at opportune times adds some much needed depth. Considering FF15s combat... I don't have all that much faith. SE is not Platinum Games.
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