Idea's for Stage 3 renewal

[azn]

There's been dedicated "How to change" threads to Stage 1 and 2, might as well continue with Stage 3. You can post your own ideas and blueprints as you wish

Here's my blueprint:

1 - Music Box/Roulette Cylinder +
2 - Peg Board
3 - Some crazy abomination of the Salmon Ladder +
4 - SK39 Sidewinder with side to side moving poles going from left to right
5 - NW Germany Cliffhanger w/ 1 jump
6 - Wingnuts +
7 - Vertical Limit Kai 
8 - Elongated Swing Edge w/ 1 blind transition/Flying Bar

Some of the inspiration for this was from Shin, some was from ANW and the rest was me making sh*t that would make Inui lose his mind. 

So for the 1st two obstacles, I wanted to essentially do the Roulette Cylinder into Doorknob Grasp combo, given how fast people did the Flying Bar to Sidewinder combo from SK39 only to quickly fail the swing edge, their needs to be a slow start instead of runs that are just as quick as the digests. In that regard the roulette cylinder was the best opening obstacle SASUKE made for the third stage and is a very safe choice, personally I liked the SK26 version but either one works. Why then would I put the Music Box as a suggestion? I think it would be a cool idea to see the Music Box, a spinning metal tube with discs attached, without it's motor and essentially function in a similar way to the roulette cylinder. Kind of like a Roulette Cylinder and the Sending Climber had a child and this was the result. This was also inspired by one of those SASUKE Custom Obstacle videos where in one of them, the person suggested a metal tube with cliffhanger ledges instead of discs.

Instead of a doorknob grasper, I instead have the peg board, the lone VIKING derived obstacle that continues on with the theme of a slow and strength draining obstacle while also being a "new" concept for SASUKE.

For obstacle 3, I feel this would be the area to put the Salmon Ladder, an obstacle that I've always wanted to see be in this stage, especially given the current iteration being bland and easy for most of the stage 2 participants. I personally would love to see a combo of various Salmon Ladder iterations mixed together, maybe even a part with an angled salmon ladder cause that exists now.

This leads directly to the Sidewinder, Kinda similar to how the Flying Bar combines with the Sidewinder, this also involves a bar supported on cradles directly into a pole. I really liked the spinning sidewinders and they did do some damage but just so that it turns even more impossible for the likes of Suzuki, It would also be great to see poles 2 and 4 - the ones which don't spin - move from left to right, causing more timing issues.

Then it's on to the cliffhanger, and while some want to bring back a jumpless cliffhanger, considering Inui's love of cliffhangers with jumps, I doubt that would happen. For me, I would choose the one used in NW Germany with only one jump. The ledge placements for the cliffhanger used in NWG are so foreign and unorthodox it would be interesting to see it. Also specifically one jump for this version because it's quite unnecessary to have two jumps, for any cliffhanger in general, especially given that reverse ledge transitions are banned in SASUKE.

I like the idea of a swinging obstacle after the cliffhanger, I mean it worked well between SK14 to SK27, so to continue that trend, the Wingnuts would be my suggestion, which would lead directly to the vertical limit kai

Finally the last obstacle, obviously we wanted to see this spot inhabited by the Flying Bar but after seeing it being cleared so quickly for so many tournaments now in both SASUKE and especially ANW, sure it might be suspenseful, but I doubt people with loads of training on it would fail, but It is part of my blueprint as it is a very safe choice as a last obstacle.

However, ANW13 had an idea to put the Falling Shelves be the final obstacle of a stage which was actually really smart. Unfortunately that stage was the second one instead of the third one but honestly, it is a very unique idea and I actually did enjoy those attempts as they where a lot more suspenseful compared to the lone flying bar attempt that season imo. Given that the swing edge exists now, elongate it to that exact format ANW13 used, which means 1 blind transition instead of SASUKE's 2, plus a jump similar to the pipe slider jump from SK16-17, maybe even bigger given how much distance competitors can swing on it, and I feel that would be a great final obstacle.

[dakohosu]

To be honest I’m kind of ok with the new Stage 3 given that it addressed the issue that we’ve always had with the recent iterations; this being the first half isn’t hard enough such that basically everyone reaches, and fails the Cliffhanger. Sasuke 39 actually holds the record for the smallest proportion of Stage 3 attempts reaching the Cliffhanger at only a third (not counting Sasuke 19 for obvious reasons), which I think goes a long way. It makes the entire stage much more nail biting to watch rather than just waiting for competitors to fail the 180 transition.

However if it was up to me I’d still make a couple of changes as I believe everything can be improved upon. Again I’m going to be semi-realistic here as a complete rehash is obvs out of the question.

1 - Roulette Cylinder (+)
2 - Sidewinder
3 - Swing Edge
4 - Cliffhanger Dimension (+)
5 - Original Vertical Limit
6 - Ascending Flying Bar

Here’s my rationale.

I’ve always believed that the first obstacle of Stage 3 should never be immediately failable like the Flying Bar is, given that it runs the risk of a competitor failing after about 5 seconds (like Isa did in 38) which is super anticlimactic. The first obstacle should instead be a strength drainer to test resilience on the rest of the stage. Hence why I went with the Roulette Cylinder; I nearly picked the Floating Boards but some competitors on ANW failed the first transition which results in the issue I outlined above.

The next two obstacles I’m fine with as they’ve just been renewed and have done significant damage in the last tournament.

I’ve kept the Cliffhanger Dimension purely because I feel as though making the Cliffhanger easier wouldn’t sit well with a lot of viewers as it’s the most iconic obstacle on Sasuke, but it defo shouldn’t be made harder either. However I’ve instead decided to make the VL easier but connect the two, given that a lot of competitors have trained for the transition but the Sasuke 32-34 version was just too OP.

And I’ve removed the Pipe Slider as the final obstacle as it’s just not suspenseful enough for its placement on the course. The Flying Bar, being immediately failable, is probs the best option for the most dramatic part of the most dramatic stage. I decided to up the ante by suggesting that each rung should maybe be 10-15cm higher than the other, and there should be 5-6 of them like the original iteration that was never attempted before it was scrapped in 27.

[ahzoo]

Honestly, part of me thinks that the only changes that should be made to the current Stage 3 to make it the best it possibly can be are fairly minor, as 39's course was actually really good despite everything, and so, the mods I'd made to the course are similar to those Dakoosu made, [and for the record, the changes that he made are ones that I'd personally endorse] albeit with a few differences:

1. Make the Pipe Slider the first obstacle. As mentioned by many others, the Pipe Slider is a tension-builder like the Roulette Cylinder,  Arm Rings and Rumbling Dice whose main difficulties lies in being a strength drainer, and also in the fact that the final jump marks the point in which a 3rd Stage run can [theoretically] fall at the final hurdle. As such, considering that the point of the first obstacle is to get people excited for that what will come next, and also, these days, the transition from the first to the second obstacle is a challenge in and of itself, the Pipe Slider has accidentally become the perfect first obstacle for any modern Third Stage. So, if you already have the structure in place, why not make it so? Such a move has taken place in the past, use it when it's actually called-for.

Possible enhancements - Replace the Pipe Slider with a stopperless Bar Glider, or just use the Roulette Cylinder.

2. Make the last pole on the Sidewinder spin clockwise at a fast rate. Simply put, such a transition that would make timing the jump all the harder as the peg you're moving to will now travel opposite to your direction of movement, and the difference in speeds could be used to make it so that competitors only get an opportunity to make the jump every 2/3 jumps [depending on how you choose to implement the gearing] which will make this obstacle even more of a strength drainer, and increase the amount of pressure that competitors feel when prospecting a jump, which can force even more mental mistakes on this jump. Thus, every single transition would escalate in difficulty, and bring with it more tension.

Possible enhancements - Add a fifth pole that drops down after the dual-speed transition and/or place the landing mat further away from the final pole.

3. Place the third VLK ledge backwards relative to the first two. Doing so will essentially add a Crazy transition to the obstacle, and make attempts of the obstacle even more of a visual spectacle than it already is, while also making the second transition differentiable from the first - increasing the magnitude of a move only works if the move can't be replicated reliably [as in the case of the Crazy Cliffhanger], but in the case of the current VL transitions, once competitors have mastered the technique, they seem to be able to do it with little issue even accounting for the greater distance. Add a backwards jump to the equation, and you have an all-new challenge to figure out, hopefully, one as difficult as its Cliffhanger counterpart

Possible enhancement - If you must, increase the size of the gaps between ledges Anything more is just overkill.

4.Move the Flying Bar to the final obstacle, shrink its cradles to pre-34 sizes and make it six ledges. The Flying Bar is the perfect final obstacle, but its positioning and nerfs have turned a tense and feared nail-biter that one can fail at any point from a combination of exhaustion and inexpereince into an almost-formality. Undoing this damage and restoring it to its 25+26 glory ought to be the first thing anyone does to the obstacle. The second thing anyone should do is replace the third ledge with the second and third ledges from Ninja Warrior Switzerland which is all about breaking a rhythm established by the other transitions and making not building up all the momentum in the world to the Flying Bar and only enhance it further.

Possible enhancement - Ascending ledges, as suggested by Dakoosu.

5. Make the rest time limit cumulative, as opposed to per obstacle. As I have stated in other threads, I am all for the idea of needing to be actively mindful of how much rest time you can afford to take, and forcing competitors to consider the fact that by taking 2 mins rest for the Cliffhanger, they are more-or-less forcing themselves to do the VLK or Flying Bar without rest is a great way to do just that.

6. Add consistent theming to the stage. I am incredibly sympathetic to ArbuthnotBlob's campaign to Make Sasuke Themed Again, and while the 3rd Stage is the least-bad stage in this regard by a country mile [being defined by naked steel with red accents], I still feel like there remains room for improvement - the CD-VLK resting bar shows that replacing the red accents with neon could be an interesting possibility if done right, while the overall feel of the stage could be massively improved IMO simply by not lighting up the moonlit obstacles fully until a competitor has reached the relevant landing mat, thus adding a deeper element of suspense to proceedings

Thankfully, all of these mods are fairly easy to do on a limited budget, and wouldn't take that much effort on Inui's part to implement to the extent that they can really be thought of as the 3rd Stage 39 should have had.

Edit: For my thoughts on a clean-slate 3rd Stage renewal, please refer to sasukemaniac.proboards.com/thread/8502/design-stage-3-obstacles

[Dazed (Wiin)]

1. Pipe Slider (+)
2. Flying Bar (+)
3. Sidewinder
4. Vertical Limit Kai
5. Cliffhanger Dimension
6. Swing Edge

Notes:
Swing Edge can be made longer, with 3 jumps in total, one normal lache, one with the grip switch, and one fully blind (like the last one is now, I guess that's the best way to describe it).
Not sure if the first three obstacles in a row is a bit much, might be too gimmicky too with the idea of using a bar for 1000 (ie two) different things. (Any more than two might be too gimmicky but I feel like this should be fine, although the bar for the pipe slide and flying bar is different I believe, but perhaps a modification could be made to make one bar work for both.) Otherwise, if it is too much, then just have a break between the pipe slider and flying bar with no significant jump. I also feel like this would build more suspense around the Sidewinder, although even now it has been becoming more suspenseful

SPOILER: Click to show

(although in my opinion, the people who failed it in SASUKE 39 were the people who I would have expected to fail it.)

And, I'd like to see the Cliffhanger Dimension second last, just with the mechanics it has compared to past cliffhangers.

The important detail to the course I have above is that only one obstacle requires a major modification, and otherwise, it is just a basic rearrangement, (which is probably harder than it seems, but also I feel like it may be more reasonable than bringing back certain obstacles, making new other obstacles, doing mind-blowing this or that, and what-have-you). I feel like this is a low-input, high-output change, kind of like making what we have better rather than throwing it out entirely, I guess.

[dakohosu]

Jan 22, 2022 5:46:55 GMT -5 Dazed (Wiin) said:

1. Pipe Slider (+)
2. Flying Bar (+)
3. Sidewinder
4. Vertical Limit Kai
5. Cliffhanger Dimension
6. Swing Edge

Notes:
Swing Edge can be made longer, with 3 jumps in total, one normal lache, one with the grip switch, and one fully blind (like the last one is now, I guess that's the best way to describe it).
Not sure if the first three obstacles in a row is a bit much, might be too gimmicky too with the idea of using a bar for 1000 (ie two) different things. (Any more than two might be too gimmicky but I feel like this should be fine, although the bar for the pipe slide and flying bar is different I believe, but perhaps a modification could be made to make one bar work for both.) Otherwise, if it is too much, then just have a break between the pipe slider and flying bar with no significant jump. I also feel like this would build more suspense around the Sidewinder, although even now it has been becoming more suspenseful

SPOILER: Click to show

(although in my opinion, the people who failed it in SASUKE 39 were the people who I would have expected to fail it.)

And, I'd like to see the Cliffhanger Dimension second last, just with the mechanics it has compared to past cliffhangers.

The important detail to the course I have above is that only one obstacle requires a major modification, and otherwise, it is just a basic rearrangement, (which is probably harder than it seems, but also I feel like it may be more reasonable than bringing back certain obstacles, making new other obstacles, doing mind-blowing this or that, and what-have-you). I feel like this is a low-input, high-output change, kind of like making what we have better rather than throwing it out entirely, I guess.

Interesting that you put the Vertical Limit before the Cliffhanger Dimension. What was the rationale behind that just out of interest?

I think the Pipe Slider to the Flying Bar could be interesting; I'd say use two different bars but force the competitor to do a lache from the first to the second, because I feel like that'll actually make the Pipe Slider jump more challenging than just landing on a platform that's clearly far too close to the end of the track as it stands. 

I actually love the idea of the Swing Edge being the final obstacle. I've always said that the Flying Bar should be the final obstacle as it's immediate 'failability' makes it far more nail-biting a conclusion to the most gruelling stage, but the Swing Edge is also equally (if not more) failable. It would also be absolute hell on the grip after having faced the VLK and CHD. Also make the landing platform quite far away so competitors have to build up a huge swing on the last ledge like with the Gliding Ring.

[azn]

Maybe I was a tad ambitious with my idea, but considering how degrading of a renewal SK39, the third stage that tournament was a bright spot, even if it wasn't a textbook renewal, the results proved otherwise. In that case, I also made a revised blueprint.

1 - Arm Rings or something similar, but with separate bars+
2 - Peg Board, if the latter is the first obstacle, those bars would then be used for the board, akin to VIKING's long bars
3 - Sidewinder
4 - Cliffhanger Dimension
5 - VLK
6 - Flying Bar with suggested mods, or Swing Edge w/ 1 blind transition

Not that crazy in the middle, with the final obstacle being the favorites to surpass the pipe slider. The beginning of the stage is the only part I wouldn't see happen, but I really don't like the current Flying Bar into Sidewinder combo, I think the Sidewinder is fine now as a separate obstacle, whereas the flying bar should not be in it's current location and should be finishing the stage rather than starting the stage, not to mention how easy it is most of the time. As for the obstacles I proposed, The arm rings was ok as a sliding obstacle and would be fine as an opening obstacle but alternatively, instead of rings, two separate bars which would be used to directly combine that to a peg board.

The obstacles representing spots 3-5 are fine as is, and if anything swapping the CLD/CHD and VLK could lead to a direct transition into a cliffhanger ledge, but for the sake of avoiding 2 180transitions, I'd prefer if the VLK ledges where to be traversed liked in SK29-31, which funnily enough, would be a reverse transition onto a cliffhanger ledge, an illegal move according to the SASUKE Rulebook. As for the last obstacle, pretty much the same as my last blueprint, and it's a win win either way, especially with the formers suggested mods as stated by Dakoosu and Ahzoo.

With that out of the way, I also think Ahzoo's statement on the lack of theming in stage 3 - and really all the stages except the final - is also important, though the idea of theming in general is up to personal preference, but for me, the stage looks boring af. I like the idea of lighting playing a role of building up suspense, like how pro sportsman lit up the monster box for when a record was broken. If that's the case, SK33's 3rd stage, despite being bullsh*t (though in retrospect, maybe bring back that version of the flying bar, it was still clearable...unfortunately that clear was done by a bastard) is actually my favorite 3rd stage when it comes to aesthetics, and if I remember correctly, they did use lighting to build some suspense, by making the light change in color when a person cleared an obstacle, it's not the suggested, monster box like lighting, but it was something.

[Dazed (Wiin)]

Jan 22, 2022 10:25:31 GMT -5 dakohosu said:

Jan 22, 2022 5:46:55 GMT -5 Dazed (Wiin) said:

1. Pipe Slider (+)
2. Flying Bar (+)
3. Sidewinder
4. Vertical Limit Kai
5. Cliffhanger Dimension
6. Swing Edge

Notes:
Swing Edge can be made longer, with 3 jumps in total, one normal lache, one with the grip switch, and one fully blind (like the last one is now, I guess that's the best way to describe it).
Not sure if the first three obstacles in a row is a bit much, might be too gimmicky too with the idea of using a bar for 1000 (ie two) different things. (Any more than two might be too gimmicky but I feel like this should be fine, although the bar for the pipe slide and flying bar is different I believe, but perhaps a modification could be made to make one bar work for both.) Otherwise, if it is too much, then just have a break between the pipe slider and flying bar with no significant jump. I also feel like this would build more suspense around the Sidewinder, although even now it has been becoming more suspenseful

SPOILER: Click to show

(although in my opinion, the people who failed it in SASUKE 39 were the people who I would have expected to fail it.)

And, I'd like to see the Cliffhanger Dimension second last, just with the mechanics it has compared to past cliffhangers.

The important detail to the course I have above is that only one obstacle requires a major modification, and otherwise, it is just a basic rearrangement, (which is probably harder than it seems, but also I feel like it may be more reasonable than bringing back certain obstacles, making new other obstacles, doing mind-blowing this or that, and what-have-you). I feel like this is a low-input, high-output change, kind of like making what we have better rather than throwing it out entirely, I guess.

Interesting that you put the Vertical Limit before the Cliffhanger Dimension. What was the rationale behind that just out of interest?

I think the Pipe Slider to the Flying Bar could be interesting; I'd say use two different bars but force the competitor to do a lache from the first to the second, because I feel like that'll actually make the Pipe Slider jump more challenging than just landing on a platform that's clearly far too close to the end of the track as it stands. 

I actually love the idea of the Swing Edge being the final obstacle. I've always said that the Flying Bar should be the final obstacle as it's immediate 'failability' makes it far more nail-biting a conclusion to the most gruelling stage, but the Swing Edge is also equally (if not more) failable. It would also be absolute hell on the grip after having faced the VLK and CHD. Also make the landing platform quite far away so competitors have to build up a huge swing on the last ledge like with the Gliding Ring.

I think moving the VLK to 4th helps make the CHD the second last obstacle, which I prefer since in my opinion, the CHD and Swing Edge are more anticipated obstacles, I guess. I feel like it will give more people a chance to try and fail it, like Hioki who has been practicing it for years and never had a chance to attempt it (it feels like a more seclusive obstacle that few have attempted, which itself you could argue is a good thing). I feel like it is a very difficult obstacle, but with the CHD is, I feel like that could be potentially more difficult so I'd like to see that as a later challenge that you must work your way up to, I guess. (And I feel like neither the VLK nor CHD would fit well as the last obstacle). 

I like the idea of using two different bars too, but still have them lead onto each other. It could help with the pipe slider's structure too, like how it is now with the end section linking to the scaffolding would work but if competitors had to jump the bar then this would need changing. 

Yeah, I feel like it would have the flying bar effect where at any jump, the competitor could fall, except, the flying bar isn't what it used to be and doesn't have that effect anymore. xD 

[dakohosu]

That's fair. I do wonder how competitors like Hioki and Sato would do on the Vertical Limit especially if its before the Cliffhanger. At least we know that if they fail the VLK when it's placed before the CHD then they have absolutely no shot at clearing Stage 3 even if they do clear the Cliffhanger, which I think Sato can at some point but I've sort of lost confidence in Hioki after having regressed by failing the first transition. Sato could've probably cleared it had he not been screwed over by the ledges moving out of sync in 38.

Honestly, if it were completely up to me I'd remove the Dimension completely as I think the 180 transitions kinda ruin Stage 3, and have an easier Cliffhanger like the Kai or Shin version connected straight into the Vertical Limit Kai. The reason my first post had Dimension+Original Vertical Limit is because I know that from a ratings perspective, making the Cliffhanger any easier wouldn't sit well with most Japanese fans or competitors. But it definitely shouldn't be made any harder either as that would just worsen the problem of the Cliffhanger being the focal point of Stage 3.

As you can probably tell, I'm really not a fan of the backwards transitions as I just feel like they've caused recent Stage 3s to become way too predictable, but I've kind of accepted that, similar to the Backstream, they're here to stay.

[azn]

Well, they could always just unban the rule where it is not allowed to do a transition whilst facing the ledges.

Almost every Ninja Show with a jumping cliffhanger doesn't have that rule and it leads to better results both for competitors and us the viewers, SASUKE being an exception.

[dakohosu]

Jan 23, 2022 14:41:53 GMT -5 azn said:

Well, they could always just unban the rule where it is not allowed to do a transition whilst facing the ledges.

Almost every Ninja Show with a jumping cliffhanger doesn't have that rule and it leads to better results both for competitors and us the viewers, SASUKE being an exception.

According to a few sources (Arsenette being one of them I remember) the reason they banned it was more due to safety than anything else. Like when Drew did the forward transition he was told that it was illegal due to being dangerous. I don’t understand why though because surely doing a half-blind backwards transition poses much more risk due to not having as much reference as to how far you’re jumping potentially resulting in overshooting and landing on the hard floor rather than the water, or something like that.

It’s kinda dumb either way. I’ve always been an advocate of the notion that an obstacle should be designed such that you can complete it by any means necessary without blatantly cheating; like why make the Fish Bone platform 10 feet wide if you’re going to disqualify competitors for skipping pegs, or disallowing competitors from going above a certain point on the Sidewinder poles rather than just blocking it off etc.

I’m sure the main reason is that the backwards transition just looks cooler to showcase on the previews and navis and they just covered that all up with ‘it’s unsafe to do it any other way’ which is blatant bulls**t, but what can you do.