arsenette
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Post by arsenette on Jul 15, 2014 12:39:56 GMT -5
Is being soaked by swimming in full clothes, goggles and waterlogged shoes not taken into account when doing either walls? Because this is the reality of the situation regardless of how much people can lift free weights in a controlled environment. Why not take your training, add swimming a lap THEN doing the walls (without changing clothes) and see if anyone is having issues with the 100kg wall.
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Post by LusitaniaAngel313 on Jul 15, 2014 13:21:12 GMT -5
Is being soaked by swimming in full clothes, goggles and waterlogged shoes not taken into account when doing either walls? Because this is the reality of the situation regardless of how much people can lift free weights in a controlled environment. Why not take your training, add swimming a lap THEN doing the walls (without changing clothes) and see if anyone is having issues with the 100kg wall. the metal spin never did that... Anyways I once did a lap on the pool with my shoes on. Simply put, don't if you don't have to! Gah that must be tough lifting let alone trying to recover from what the backstream did to ya just before!
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Post by Oti on Jul 15, 2014 13:49:17 GMT -5
When I said 100 and 180 above, I was referring to deadlifts. A 100 kg wall would suck.
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arsenette
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Post by arsenette on Jul 15, 2014 13:54:06 GMT -5
My bad for using KG instead of Lbs (which is a drastic difference LOL) but the fact that the point of the thread is about those 2 obstacles in current Sasuke Rising era (after the backstream) has not been taken into account. You can't complain about the obstacle in isolation, it has to be taken into account with what precedes it.
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Post by danjimaru on Jul 15, 2014 14:07:47 GMT -5
I bet Kanno is the only one that could come close to these numbers. At the average height of 165cm and 60kg bodyweight that these competitors have even 100kg deadlifts would be pushing the limit. Size isn't the problem. Look at elite Chinese Olympic lifters, or anyone down in the 56 kg class that matter. Smaller people can still be brutally strong, and they actually have an advantage in lifting, leverage-wise. The problem is that so many competitors neglect the basics like raw strength. 100 kg is not good, though. Not for a healthy adult male athlete. No. 180 would be really good in my opinion, and it would certainly make a little 50 kg wall feel much lighter. Chinese Olympic lifters don't just decide they want to become strong. They train at an early age for these meets. Also many "regulars" in Sasuke are over the age where they could pick up the technique to safely handle weights over 100kg. It's just not realistic to go heavy at that age without hurting yourself in the process, and for what? A gameshow??? Obviously Sasuke means a lot to these competitors because if I were to face the backstream in #29 I would quit as soon as I had seen the first competitor, a veteran swimmer almost drown in the pool. Weight training is a clever thing to do in preparation, blowing out your lower spine and staying in a wheelchair a couple months because at age 40 you thought you could lift 3x your bodyweight off the ground, not so much. I consider myself above average in terms of muscularity and condition, and it took me about 18 months of hard work to get me from 60kg clean&press to go up to 82.5kg (4 reps) and I still find it hard to lift a bar loaded with 40kg on the smith machine and deadlift 160kg. I'm a personal trainer so I am at the gym every day of the week.
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Post by Oti on Jul 15, 2014 14:46:35 GMT -5
The point of my example was that smaller, lighter people can still be brutally strong. I just used Chinese lifters because they typically dominate the lower weight classes. You are never too old to learn to lift and become stronger. Jon Sullivan of Grey Steel specifically trains people who are 40+. Vic Parker can deadlift more than you at 70 years old. Anybody can hurt themselves going heavy all the time. But to say someone is too old to get strong, or too old to handle a 100 kg deadlift is bulls**t. Your deadlift is definitely above average. Most people think 140 kg is heavy.
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Post by danjimaru on Jul 15, 2014 15:20:30 GMT -5
It has to do with the amount of hormones you produce. These hormones are in correlation with how brittle your bones are. Also bones are trained much like muscles, they damage, brake down and are rebuilt stronger. Now someone who started handling heavy weights at an early age has a clear advantage of having a bonestructure capable of withstanding the force that the skeletal apparatus endures during a heavy lift.
From my experience all older males that go heavy on the weights are either on hormone replacement therapy or have been lifting weights from a very young age, that's just how it is. And I have heard from dozends of cases where an injury with heavy weights at age 40+ meant the end of line for the guy. I myself assist a few people that are banned by their physician from doing deadlifts, benchpresses, curls, squats, pulls, rows... most give up after a year and the few that keep on going never reach their former stats.
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Post by danjimaru on Jul 15, 2014 15:46:21 GMT -5
My point is, when you pull on 30, 40, or 50kg bringing it up to hip level isn't a problem but the technique to swing the wall from there to just under your pectorals to squeeze your body in a splitt second underneath it, the twist the handwrists make to push the weight up and finally passing underneath the falling obstacle is really not an easy thing to do, even for an athletic person.
And from the speed the wall is droping and the way competitors are handling them I believe the obstacle altough "appearing" to look the same has suffered modifications.
As I have worked in different gyms before I can say that seamingly identical smith machines can "feel" entirely different with the same amount of weight on them.
Sorry for going OT here, just wanted to stress that the Wall Lifting obstacle is anything but easy! It speaks for the competitors that to date so few got hurt.
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Post by Oti on Jul 15, 2014 16:47:55 GMT -5
Hormones matter (which is why testosterone is a common steroid), but your training and diet affect your hormones as well. It's a relationship. Heavy barbell exercises coupled with real food like steak and potatoes will create a systematic response that results in a lot of good hormones being produced, among them being testosterone and human growth hormone. I'm not arguing with your statement that old people have less of these anabolic hormones in their bodies because that's true. I'm arguing with your use of that fact. "Old people don't have the hormones they need to recover and get stronger, so they shouldn't try because it will never happen." That's bulls**t. They can. Just at a slower pace. Bones don't adapt to stress like muscles do. Bones get thicker from the center outward. Regardless of this fact, there is nothing stopping old people from lifting heavy. Heavy is relative. Heavy for a 91 year old woman is much less than you or I can lift. But still, she can lift it, she can recover, she can adapt and she can get stronger. And she's doing it now.Your experience is true because that's the norm everywhere. Most people don't want to work hard and get stronger, but then wonder why they feel so horrible at 60. That's not everyone, though. That's not just "how it is". That's not evidence of anything more than the kind of world we live in today. Just like a lot of your clients quit. I worked as a trainer for a while as well and plenty of people showed up for two workouts and never came back again. Those who were serious about getting stronger and improving their lives stayed, however, and made progress. I took a kid who had never squatted before in his life and got his squat to 145 kg for three sets of five. I helped an old man (61) bench 140 kg. It depends on the goals and drive of the client. I maintain that 50 kg still is not heavy to a strong athlete. With some power they can even throw it over their heads like Travis Allen Schroeder did in Sasuke 4. I understand the competitors this season we wet and tired from the backstream, but I see this as evidence that they aren't as strong or conditioned as they could/should be.
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Post by danjimaru on Jul 16, 2014 10:31:45 GMT -5
I never said older people can't lift weights. But they shouldn't try to lift heavy. Specially if they are thin and have very low body fat *hint Sasuke competitors* and have no previous experience with heavy weights. Fact is the strongest men in the world are FAT so bodyweight obviously matters. Every single strong lifter over fourty or so years old started lifting in their 20's. Lifting is definately a sport in which people don't just decide at age 40 they want to brake a world record. It is simply not possible to go very heavy at a certain age without risking injury and the risk is only lowered by the years of experience.
There are of course certain individuals who go all out, risk their health and even manage to dodge every bullet along the way. But honestly if a client came to me at age 35 and told me he used to be a world class runner once, has zero experience with weights and now wants to lift 250kg raw I'd pass.
Today personal trainers require a $ 500000-1 million insurance to cover legal fees for these types of delusional clients who insist on doing an exercise that their body can't take and then land in a wheelchair.
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Post by danjimaru on Jul 16, 2014 10:56:31 GMT -5
On the other side of the fence I worked with a charming lady once who at age 32 decided to get bulky and muscular, she broke 5 years later the benchpress record of her class (last year) and is now looking at the possibility to challenge world records; she takes steroids in large quantities, weeks before competition multiple shots a day (fast acting cipionate and orals too) last year she benched 130kg.
She realizes that she is putting her life on the line for the record.
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Post by Oti on Jul 16, 2014 13:16:57 GMT -5
Well obviously old people shouldn't lift heavy if they have no experience, but neither should young kids or 30 year olds who don't know what they're doing. No one should without experience.
Fat doesn't make you stronger. Muscular body weight makes you stronger. SOME of the strongest men in the world are fat because there's no upper limit in the super heavyweight class. They can eat as much as they want for recovery. Some of the strongest men are not fat, however. Dan Green isn't fat. Dmitry Klokov. Derek Poundstone. It's a mixed bag.
See now you're talking about world records. That's different. You need to start early, have great genetics and almost always use a lot of drugs. You CAN go heavy when you are 50. When you are 60. That heavy just needs to be different. Instead of a 1RM, you'll be working with fives instead. But heavy is heavy. There are old people who follow the Starting Strength method of training and do well on it. That involves setting a new 5RM every workout. Which means the weight is heavy.
I would train that individual. But I would also tell him there's no guarantee he can get that strong, though. Hell, there's no guarantee you or I can get that strong. 180 kg is probably a safe bet, though. He'd probably get there depending on genetics and how well he listens. You'd also need to make him realize that world class running has nothing to do with lifting. But you make it sound like he's going to come into the gym on day one and try to lift that weight immediately. Or that lifting as heavy as possible every time is the secret to gaining strength. You don't understand how this works.
What do you think older people should do? Lighter weight and more reps?
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Post by Oti on Jul 16, 2014 13:53:54 GMT -5
I decided to make sure I wasn't full of s*** last night. I waited until after my entire workout, at about 3 AM, and then deadlifted 165 kg and wall lifted 50 kg. It just isn't hard.
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Post by danjimaru on Jul 16, 2014 15:09:24 GMT -5
Older people need to train according to their body's hability. That involves getting a medical check up and doing periodic endurance tests with a cardiologist, access their lung capacity with a pulmonologist and doing supervised exercises at an osteopathy clinic. After they did all this and still feel they want to lift weights a physiotherapist should be the first address. In my opinion it's only after all these steps that they should contact a personal trainer and work on "heavier" weights.
Building muscle at a certain age is extremely difficult but many clients realize this after a while so I also refer them to a nutritionist to help them lean out. Usually clients I have worked with in their mid 30's and older start with a strenght goal reach it and then switch to cardio and endurance once they experience the visible benefit of a lean body. Weight training is then reduced to aprox. once a week with a minimalist routine mostly fixing around the upper body
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Post by danjimaru on Jul 16, 2014 15:12:31 GMT -5
Your smith machine follows a diagonal pathway not a vertical one, therefore it's much easier. Still you are strong, respect!
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Post by Oti on Jul 16, 2014 15:14:34 GMT -5
Honestly, if an older person wants to train and get stronger, they should avoid personal trainers altogether because a vast majority of them (all, in my experience) don't know what they're doing.
I lifted the weight twice, from both sides, and even went up to 63.5 kg and still did it without a problem. The slant is a bulls**t argument. I don't know what your problem is, but 50 kg really is not a lot of weight if you have any real training experience.
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arsenette
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Post by arsenette on Jul 16, 2014 15:27:42 GMT -5
Do a few more obstacles, dive in a pool then do the walls in the time allotted
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Post by danjimaru on Jul 16, 2014 15:34:15 GMT -5
Next time try with your palm open! I'm not saying it's heavy for everyone, but to me it's heavy, 40 kg on the smith machine feel like 60kg+ on free weights to me. And you don't look like your bodyweight is 60kg either
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Post by Oti on Jul 16, 2014 16:07:34 GMT -5
I don't think Yuuji could deadlift the 165 kg beforehand. What's your point? I'm not lifting them under ideal circumstances either. I'm sore and tired and injured. It's hard to quantify, and is just an example.
I tried to keep my hands open but the fingers just naturally curve on a bar. It doesn't make a difference though. I feel weighing as little as 60 kg would be unfair for me because of my longer levers (I am lanky). But that does tie into another point that I feel is true; competitors should get stronger, even in that means gaining a little bit of weight. Strong lean tissue more than carries its weight.
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Post by danjimaru on Jul 17, 2014 1:25:33 GMT -5
That lifting 200kg like it was suggested for them to pass a 50kg obstacle with ease is something entirely out of their reach. There is only so much that training can do. To pack some muscles while staying lean is almost impossible, that's what they call bulking and leaning out in bodybuilding, two distinct phases. I believe every single competitor is able to lift the weight on a smith machine, much like you did in the gym. But then again your facial expression wasn't telling us; lightweight... It's still heavy and arsenette is right, when you are tired and under pressure to lift it as fast as you can 3 times in a row with increasing weight, no grip, anouncer shouting and buzz ringing in your ear the game changes. The reason why their bodyweight matters is at 50kg they are almost Lifting 1x their own weight. That would be close to 100kg for me. It's the kind of weight I wouldn't be able to put on my chest and press over my head (yet).
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