was kawaguchi really the second best competitor?

[shunsukenumber98]

One thing I'm kinda of curious to know is this, was Kawaguchi really the second best competitor from sasuke 32-37, when we was deemed the second best. To be honest, there were other better options for that title (DD, Sato and to a certain extent, hioki). I'm no way saying tomo is a bad competitor, his results are definitely impressive, but not where i would deem him the second best. A example of this is sasuke 37, where he had a pretty bad performance on stage 3, being the only one to fail the first transition and yet, was still given 99 in 37. What do you all think? 

[YourResidentKojiFan]

I'd say he was, based off of a mix of potential and actual results. His potential, discounting Yūsuke of course, was arguably only bettered by Ryo and maaaybe Yuuji during 32-35, given that Jun and Hioki even back then were perennial Cliff fodder, (Hioki, thinking about it, actually only even made it there once during that span) anyone else who had potential like Shunsuke and Kanno were beginning their freefalls down Mount Everest, and DD seemed to have a hard limit of the VL whereas Kawaguchi had at least cleared 30's version, even if his attempt in 35 was subpar compared to others.

In terms of his actual results, (again sticking with 32-35 here) Flying Bar - Double Pendulum - UCCH - VLK is pretty good, especially when you consider that in 32-34, nobody was beating the VLK. His Double Pendulum fail was also proven to be a huge fluke, his 32 fail was partially due to rain, and while 34 and 35, yeah, he just failed, but still made it deep into Stage 3 both times. Again discounting Yūsuke, the only people who you could reasonably say had better results than him were DD and Jun.

Overall, was Tomo indeed the pick to be number 2 from 32-37? Maybe. I think DD was overall a better competitor (and I HEAVILY emphasize "competitor" here before anyone goes nuts) and Jun had better consistency, but no way DD was being marketed that much and the producers at the time didn't like Jun's whole parkour thing, plus he didn't have the records he does now.

[dakohosu]

Pretty much what KojiFan said.

Kawaguchi seemed like the best logical pick. He was arguably neck and neck with Drew in terms of the second-best competitor behind Yusuke, with Drew surpassing him in 33, the two having the same result in 34, and Kawaguchi edging it in 35 (I'm discounting 32 due to Tomo running in bad conditions). But obviously because Tomo was deemed a lot more screenworthy, with his Per-Adra business being a good sellable story, and Inui's.... attitude.... towards foreigners (especially Drew given their alleged fight in 31, and don't get me started on the kerfuffle with the Americans in 32), Tomo was given the hype and spotlight over Drew. Not to mention that Tomo was the only other Finalist from the RISING era and beyond, bar Ryo, who had obviously entered a pretty bad slump at the time. Also his presence on the international shows, like USA vs the World, and being the captain of Team Japan on Sasuke Indonesia (why Yusuke wasn't captain, I have no idea, but it is what it is).

Fundamentally anyone who had higher potential (Yuuji, Ryo, Kishimoto etc.) were struggling on the earlier stages, while none of the other Stage 3 regulars (Sato, Hioki, etc.) displayed the ability to get far into the course, whereas Tomo as mentioned had already cleared Stage 3, and gave a few more promising runs like in 34 and 35. So Tomo was considered to be the best tradeoff.

I do agree that he probably didn't deserve some of his numbers if we're talking skill, like #99 in 37 despite his underwhelming performance in 36, and especially getting #98 in 39 in spite of him having failed Stage 1 twice in a row prior. But obviously numbers aren't equated to skill completely, more so now than a few years back, and he's clearly considered to be one of the more marketable competitors, so I guess that has to be factored in.

I would imagine Drew may have got more spotlight had he returned to Sasuke after winning ANW11, and especially if he delivered more strong performances; he trained aggressively on the Vertical Limit after 35 so him clearing Stage 3 wasn't out of the realm of possibility. But we don't even need to discuss why that didn't end up happening.....

[shunsukenumber98]

ooo what happen to the Americans in 32?

[zoran]

Feb 19, 2024 9:32:53 GMT -5 dakohosu said:

Pretty much what KojiFan said.

Kawaguchi seemed like the best logical pick. He was arguably neck and neck with Drew in terms of the second-best competitor behind Yusuke, with Drew surpassing him in 33, the two having the same result in 34, and Kawaguchi edging it in 35 (I'm discounting 32 due to Tomo running in bad conditions). But obviously because Tomo was deemed a lot more screenworthy, with his Per-Adra business being a good sellable story, and Inui's.... attitude.... towards foreigners (especially Drew given their alleged fight in 31, and don't get me started on the kerfuffle with the Americans in 32), Tomo was given the hype and spotlight over Drew. Not to mention that Tomo was the only other Finalist from the RISING era and beyond, bar Ryo, who had obviously entered a pretty bad slump at the time. Also his presence on the international shows, like USA vs the World, and being the captain of Team Japan on Sasuke Indonesia (why Yusuke wasn't captain, I have no idea, but it is what it is).

Fundamentally anyone who had higher potential (Yuuji, Ryo, Kishimoto etc.) were struggling on the earlier stages, while none of the other Stage 3 regulars (Sato, Hioki, etc.) displayed the ability to get far into the course, whereas Tomo as mentioned had already cleared Stage 3, and gave a few more promising runs like in 34 and 35. So Tomo was considered to be the best tradeoff.

I do agree that he probably didn't deserve some of his numbers if we're talking skill, like #99 in 37 despite his underwhelming performance in 36, and especially getting #98 in 39 in spite of him having failed Stage 1 twice in a row prior. But obviously numbers aren't equated to skill completely, more so now than a few years back, and he's clearly considered to be one of the more marketable competitors, so I guess that has to be factored in.

I would imagine Drew may have got more spotlight had he returned to Sasuke after winning ANW11, and especially if he delivered more strong performances; he trained aggressively on the Vertical Limit after 35 so him clearing Stage 3 wasn't out of the realm of possibility. But we don't even need to discuss why that didn't end up happening.....

Tomo was planning on retiring in 39 if he failed the wall so he got a high number to hype that up, he chose not to retire due to the rain ruining his chances.

[dakohosu]

Feb 19, 2024 9:45:44 GMT -5 shunsukenumber98 said:

ooo what happen to the Americans in 32?

Someone leaked a photo of Nagano in the water after he was thrown in following his retirement speech, leading many to believe he had failed the Quad Steps, all of this being well before 32 was broadcast. Also, apparently Kacy Catanzaro (who was present as she was dating Brent at the time, and both competed in 32) was super rowdy, regularly disrupting production.

Inui apparently blamed the entirety of the American presence at the tournament on the above, including those that had nothing to do with the incident.

[xelA197]

Here's my thoughts on what numbers Tomohiro deserved:

32: #96 just before Kanno, the best returning competitor from 31, and obviously the three All-Stars, but him as #97 it's not that scandalous
33: #98 before Drew and of course Yusuke. Drew after his insane performance in 32 (1st place after clearing a wet Stage 1) absolutely deserved #99
34: #97, before Drew, Yuuji who vowed to retire and Yusuke
35: Probably #98 but #99 it can fit because he had the same identic result of Drew in 34
36: #99
37: #98 before Yuuji, Ryo doesn't deserve a very high number after his 31-35 fiasco

[dakohosu]

Feb 19, 2024 11:01:13 GMT -5 xelA197 said:

Here's my thoughts on what numbers Tomohiro deserved:

32: #96 just before Kanno, the best returning competitor from 31, and obviously the three All-Stars, but him as #97 it's not that scandalous
33: #98 before Drew and of course Yusuke. Drew after his insane performance in 32 (1st place after clearing a wet Stage 1) absolutely deserved #99
34: #97, before Drew, Yuuji who vowed to retire and Yusuke
35: Probably #98 but #99 it can fit because he had the same identic result of Drew in 34
36: #99
37: #98 before Yuuji, Ryo doesn't deserve a very high number after his 31-35 fiasco

Makes sense.

Where would you put him for 38-40 though? Because that's where a lot of the "Tomo gets too high numbers" criticisms come from as he still got incredibly high placements in those tournaments despite failing Stage 1. Especially because guys like Shunsuke and Kanno went from mid-to-high #90s to low #70s in a matter of two tournaments because they failed Stage 1 twice in a row (obviously they continued to fail Stage 1 several more times after but still). 

If we're basing it on skill alone then I would've put him as low #90s for 38 and #70s for 39 and 40. Him being given the highest number of any non-All-Star or champion for 38 and 39, as well as 40 bar Ryo (who had made the Final Stage TWICE and made Stage 3 in the prior tournament unlike Tomo), I thought was a bit much, even if he did threaten retirement in 39. 

Hell, if he was in the #70s in 39, he would've cleared, lol.

[xelA197]

38: #94 before Tada and Jun, I want to think that 37 was only a freak accident
39: Maybe #85, I don't see him demoted so low
40: #83, just after Ayano, It fits well

I don't see him as a #70s competitor given how is loved by TBS, a demotion to the #80s seems more realistic.

[zoran]

Feb 19, 2024 12:37:28 GMT -5 xelA197 said:

38: #94 before Tada and Jun, I want to think that 37 was only a freak accident
39: Maybe #85, I don't see him demoted so low
40: #83, just after Ayano, It fits well

I don't see him as a #70s competitor given how is loved by TBS, a demotion to the #80s seems more realistic.

In 37, he was screwed over by the rain so it was a freak accident but not his fault.

For 39, Tomo was planning on retiring if he failed the wall a third time, the rain screwing him over again convinced him to try again. It would have been disrespectful for him to be dropped so low.

Agree with 40 though, it does fit well him going after Ayano.

[brz0ny]

Well not really considering he wasn't second best during that time, however since we don't talk about the second best one then yeah I would probably say its Tomo, though its not by much. Only reason is because of his Final Stage appearance in 30 which makes him stand out from rest of consistent competitors, but he is no Takeda considering how much Yusuke is above him compared to how much he is above other competitors.