Nagano's potential best performances for each tournament

[zoran]

For the sake of the timeline, he can only kanzen in kanzen tournaments

Sasuke 7 - Rope climb (Uses natural athleticism to get up the wall but wouldn't have enough time to clear)
Sasuke 8 - Same (warped wall)
Sasuke 9 - Same  (Pipe slider)
Sasuke 10 - Same (I can't see him beating the Jump hang modification)
Sasuke 11 - 22m 
Sasuke 12 - Same (Realistically could kanzen)
Sasuke 13 - Same (Realistically could kanzen)
Sasuke 14 - Devil swing
Sasuke 15 - Same (Metal Spin)
Sasuke 16 - Pipe Slider
Sasuke 17 - Same (Kanzen)
Sasuke 18 - Same (Shin Cliffhanger)
Sasuke 19 - Same (Flying Chute)
Sasuke 20 - Stick slider
Sasuke 21 - Same (Gliding ring)
Sasuke 22 - Same (Slider Jump)
Sasuke 23 - Same 
Sasuke 24 - Kanzen (1-2 seconds left)
Sasuke 25 - Same (Circle Slider)
Sasuke 26 - Ultimate Cliffhanger (4th to 5th)
Sasuke 27 - Same (Ultimate Cliffhanger)
Sasuke 28 - Crazy Cliffhanger
Sasuke 29 - Backstream
Sasuke 30 - Crazy Cliffhanger (or wall lift if it doesn't seem plausible)
Sasuke 31 - Same (Warped wall)
Sasuke 32 - Flying bar
Sasuke 38 - Same (Dragon Glider)
Sasuke 40 - Reverse Conveyor (big if I know, if it doesn't seem plausible then the same)
Sasuke 41 - [REDACTED]

So in this timeline Nagano would have the stage 1 clear record, stage 2 clear record, stage 3 clear record and joint stage 4 record. How likely do you think these outcomes are? 
Before Sasuke 38 there was a lot of debate over who the best Sasuke competitor is. Reasonable arguments could be made for either Yuuji or Morimoto, imo I still think it's up for debate between these two, however some people made the case for Nagano still being the GOAT, UniversalTuber did a match up of the 4 champions and it concluded with a tie between Nagano and Morimoto. Do you think if Nagano achieved these results he would the definite GOAT or would Morimoto still overtake him?

[dakohosu]

These all seem plausible.

I am interested as to why you put Metal Spin as his best case in 15, but a lot better than he actually did in 26, 28, 29, and 32, because imo those fails were of the same nature, in that they weren't entirely avoidable. 26's Jumping Spider was modified so caught him off guard, 28 he just couldn't scale the wall, 29 he injured his foot on the Long Jump, and 32 he struggled with the wall again (this last one is a bit more debatable as he did eventually scale the wall and timed out a couple of seconds away from clearing).

15's Metal Spin was modified so I can understand that being his best case performance as he wouldn't have expected the extra drop when grabbing the rope, but the other examples here were also due to modifications, new courses, or just a general inability to complete the obstacle. So I'm not sure how they would be any different. Same story with a lot of the other fails you put as same, like 10, 19, 22, and 25.

Apart from that, agreed with the rest, except for maybe 40, I think his hard limit would've probably been Warped Wall, as he struggled with the obstacle even 10 years prior, and even though he timed out mainly due to hesitating on the Fish Bone, you could see that his stamina of old was just kinda gone, so I doubt he'd have enough left in the tank to scale two walls.

[zoran]

Feb 14, 2024 14:35:36 GMT -5 dakohosu said:

These all seem plausible.

I am interested as to why you put Metal Spin as his best case in 15, but a lot better than he actually did in 26, 28, 29, and 32, because imo those fails were of the same nature, in that they weren't entirely avoidable. 26's Jumping Spider was modified so caught him off guard, 28 he just couldn't scale the wall, 29 he injured his foot on the Long Jump, and 32 he struggled with the wall again (this last one is a bit more debatable as he did eventually scale the wall and timed out a couple of seconds away from clearing).

15's Metal Spin was modified so I can understand that being his best case performance as he wouldn't have expected the extra drop when grabbing the rope, but the other examples here were also due to modifications, new courses, or just a general inability to complete the obstacle. So I'm not sure how they would be any different. Same story with a lot of the other fails you put as same, like 10, 19, 22, and 25.

Apart from that, agreed with the rest, except for maybe 40, I think his hard limit would've probably been Warped Wall, as he struggled with the obstacle even 10 years prior, and even though he timed out mainly due to hesitating on the Fish Bone, you could see that his stamina of old was just kinda gone, so I doubt he'd have enough left in the tank to scale two walls.

The modification on the metal spin completely caught him off guard and he was likely confident given everyone else beat it, from watching his attempt I can't see anyway he could have beat it, it really is an obstacle that he had to learn from. For 26 it's plausible to say he would have still failed the jumping spider however he did beat the much more difficult 19 version and every other version bar 24 which was a mistake at the end, only 3 years before. In 28 he beat the wall after the time expired by using a different technique which in the best case scenario he would do on the course time and clear and for 29, best case scenario he doesn't injures his leg (even still watching his attempt he came pretty close multiple times) and 32 he gets the wall on the first go. I view these as different to 15 which I can't see him beating.

Do you agree with the result for 30 at the crazy cliffhanger or is that a bit too generous?

For 40, if a few factors went in his favour for example Kaiou making it to the glider or wall and giving him a morale boost, not injuring his leg on the silk slider and better timing on the fishbone, then maybe there was a chance.

For the last point, do you think if Nagano achieved these results, it would have made him the definitive GOAT or would Morimoto still overtake him?

[dakohosu]

Feb 14, 2024 14:46:32 GMT -5 zoran said:

Feb 14, 2024 14:35:36 GMT -5 dakohosu said:

The modification on the metal spin completely caught him off guard and he was likely confident given everyone else beat it, from watching his attempt I can't see anyway he could have beat it, it really is an obstacle that he had to learn from. For 26 it's plausible to say he would have still failed the jumping spider however he did beat the much more difficult 19 version and every other version bar 24 which was a mistake at the end, only 3 years before. In 28 he beat the wall after the time expired by using a different technique which in the best case scenario he would do on the course time and clear and for 29, best case scenario he doesn't injures his leg (even still watching his attempt he came pretty close multiple times) and 32 he gets the wall on the first go. I view these as different to 15 which I can't see him beating.

Do you agree with the result for 30 at the crazy cliffhanger or is that a bit too generous?

For 40, if a few factors went in his favour for example Kaiou making it to the glider or wall and giving him a morale boost, not injuring his leg on the silk slider and better timing on the fishbone, then maybe there was a chance.

For the last point, do you think if Nagano achieved these results, it would have made him the definitive GOAT or would Morimoto still overtake him?

With 26 there was likely the lack of expectation due to 25 getting rid of the obstacle entirely, as well as the fact that he was clearly well into his physical decline at this point, and possibly the added dizziness from the Escargot. I don't think it was an avoidable mistake, he simply didn't get far enough into the walls. 

I did not know that about 28, so I redact my previous comment. Also, he clearly just gave up after a certain point, which he didn't necessarily have to do/should've done, even Asami scolded for him for sacking it in when he still had time left.

On the topic of 30, it's really hard to say as we never saw him get deep into the new Stage 2. I think it's viable, given that he only failed due to the Swap SL glitch, is fast as hell on the Spider Walk, and is surely a pretty good swimmer being a fisherman. The only thing that would prevent him from clearing would really be his stamina which had taken a hit by that point (he cleared with one of the slower times on Stage 1), as well as the fact that 30's time limit was pretty tight, with a lot of sub-5 second clears from much younger guys in their prime. If he took too long on the SSL, which a lot of the competitors who timed out did, then he'd probably time out on the walls.

Re 40, possibly yes, though I still could not see him beating the two walls given that he was 50 years old and had numerous troubles with the wall even during his prime.

In terms of him vs Yusuke, it would definitely be pretty close, and I'd say Nagano would 100% take it in terms of impact and legacy (imo he already has), but Yusuke would probably overtake him in terms of performance because even if Nagano won twice, Yusuke is still arguably further ahead of the competition than Nagano ever was. Both of Nagano's wins would've been in tournaments with more than 1 Finalist (and another Kanzen in 24), and he still would've had spouts of inconsistency not always performing the best. Yusuke's been the lone Finalist in 4/5 of his attempts, and has comfortably come in first place in every single tournament since 31 (as well as 29), except for tournaments with weather conditions that adversely affected him specifically, or obstacle malfunctions (33). Nagano arguably always had someone close to him, like Bunpei in the Golden Era, and Yuuji in Shin-Sasuke, who frequently surpassed his performances, whereas during Yusuke's reign there's kind of been no one else, so he's definitely much more of a dominator.

Not to mention that Nagano declined immediately after 24, whereas Yusuke is only 32 and shows no signs of slowing down, so even if it's arguable as to whether Nagano in his alternate timeline, or Yusuke, would've been the GOAT, it's only a matter of time before Yusuke inevitably invalidates said argument by winning a third, fourth etc. time.