Change 3 things about the course for Sasuke 40

[dakohosu]

With Sasuke 40 allegedly scheduled to tape in a few days, many are likely pondering over the what ifs in terms of course changes. Or at least that would be the case 10-15 years ago. I think we can all agree there are going to be next to no course changes, and I felt like doing a course wishlist thread before we inevitably find out about obstacles in the coming weeks, but I wanted this to be semi-realistic given that otherwise people are just going to change the entire course which is obviously never going to happen. So to remain on the side of realism I'm restricting proposed course changes to the following:
- Maximum 3 changes across the first 3 stages, including time limits, given that despite costing a grand total of 0 yen even that seems to be a big ask in Inui's world.
- Stage 4 cannot be modified as it hasn't been revealed or attempted in its current format. 
- The Backstream, Cliffhanger Dimension, Vertical Limit, and Wall Lift cannot be replaced or modified. 
- The Salmon Ladder, Tackle, Warped Wall, Swing Edge, Fish Bone, and Dragon Glider must stay but can be modified.
- Any modifications or replacements cannot take up a significant amount of additional space compared to the previous obstacle, exceptions being the final obstacles of each stage (e.g. a third Dragon Glider track would not be allowed, as would inserting an obstacle into the stage very early on that would cause every other obstacle to be pushed back significantly)


I think the above is a realistic representation of best case scenario without verging on the realm of 'never going to happen'. If you disagree with this then feel free to post this down below.

Here are my three, unsurprisingly 2 of which are in Stage 1 and the third in Stage 2:
1. Replace the Rolling Hill with the Pole Maze 
2. Reduce Stage 1's time limit to 70 seconds 
3. Replace the Salmon Ladder Nobori/Kudari with the Swap Salmon Ladder, except instead of motorised rungs and DQ'ing lopsided transitions, just set a rule where if you land lopsided you have to notch down and redo the swap transitions from the lower rung. 

I picked 1 and 2 because you can't really have one without the other. Imo the Rolling Hill is the most in need of being replaced, as it allows for joke competitors to clear it by taking 60+ seconds on the obstacle which is not only painful to watch, but also having an obstacle that is a major deciding factor as to whether a competitor is likely to timeout that early into the stage isn't a good choice, given that if someone clears with 30 seconds left (which many do given how slow they seem to take it) the rest of their run is just a waste of time. I suggested the Pole Maze because it addresses all of these issues. Much less time to complete, and can also reliably eliminate competitors who have no right to get as far as they have done in 38-39. It also eliminates the biggest issue with the Quad Steps, in that competitors now have to complete them with enough momentum to get the pole to move, so the usual move of competitors grabbing on to each step is now discouraged. Obviously with the Rolling Hill gone the time limit can't stay the same, I reduced it from 100 to 70 seconds because imo a tighter time limit will make obstacles like the Fish Bone and Warped Wall, which penalise rushing, much more interesting to watch. I would've also picked the Silk Slider to get rid of, but I only had one more choice and wanted to make a change to Stage 2; the Double Warped Wall also sucks but with only 70 seconds it could catch a few more off guard. 

I went with 3 because I think we can all agree on Stage 2 needing to be made more stringent. The reason I went with the Salmon Ladder is because the Nobori/Kudari has massively overstayed its welcome, especially given that it was initially only meant to be a placeholder after the Swap variant was proven to be broken. I always loved the Swap Salmon Ladder's concept so decided to bring it back as it's by far the hardest variant of the obstacle and a difficulty buff is highly warranted at this point, albeit without all of the complications and glitches it became known for. It takes a lot longer to complete than the N/K especially if a competitor makes a mistake thus addresses the issue of Stage 2 being too lenient, and given the nature of the constant turning around and forwards transitions is probably more affected by the log dizziness. I personally don't mind the rest of Stage 2, given that the back half is commonly panned for being unfailable, but as 38 showed no one complained when said back half was a tight rush to the finish. The Spider Walk/Drop is also a lot more fatal with time pressure as proven by the early tournaments too. Un-nerfing the Rolling Log would've been my second choice but competitors have trained for it by this point so it would do a lot less damage than it did in 38 regardless. A new Salmon Ladder by comparison would be completely unexpected and catch competitors off guard significantly. Keeping the time limit at 105 seconds with the Swap SL is imo fine, given that 30's time limit was 110 and had a shorter course with the Cross Slider and no Reverse Conveyer, and no one cleared with more than 10 seconds.

Stage 3 I still think is slightly too difficult, but to make it any easier at this point would be a poor choice from a marketing perspective, and we're just at the point now where other competitors like Tada and Ryo are showing inklings of being able to clear. It also got the most tasteful changes in 39, so even though I still hate the Pipe Slider as the final obstacle, I just can't justify any modifications to it at the expense of the much more stale first two stages.

Let me know your thoughts.

[cb]

I'll keep mine simple and different.

1) Replace the Silk Slider - With its high clear rate and its poor execution, I want this obstacle replaced. It's modification basically did nothing but make it easier (in 38 its clear rate was 92.96%, in 39 its clear rate was 94.20%) but what would they replace it? Right now, I have no idea what to replace it with, a new obstacle or bringing an obstacle from other ninja shows. I'd probably prefer with the former but that's probably not going to happen.

2) Remove the first wall of the Ni Ren Soritatsu Kabe - The first wall of the Ni Ren is too easy and serves no purpose except for being a practice wall, which makes the second wall easier. Just remove the first wall and reduce the time limit by 15-20 seconds. The only times where I've seen someone fail the first wall was Tetsuya Sugaya who didn't even attempt the wall properly due to him timing out.

3) Reduce Stage 2's Time Limit - Simple. I just want Stage 2 to go back to its roots and be a speed stage. I want there to be a sense of urgency.

[dakohosu]

Oct 18, 2022 15:00:33 GMT -5 cb said:

I'll keep mine simple and different.

1) Replace the Silk Slider - With its high clear rate and its poor execution, I want this obstacle replaced. It's modification basically did nothing but make it easier (in 38 its clear rate was 92.96%, in 39 its clear rate was 94.20%) but what would they replace it? Right now, I have no idea what to replace it with, a new obstacle or bringing an obstacle from other ninja shows. I'd probably prefer with the former but that's probably not going to happen.

2) Remove the first wall of the Ni Ren Soritatsu Kabe - The first wall of the Ni Ren is too easy and serves no purpose except for being a practice wall, which makes the second wall easier. Just remove the first wall and reduce the time limit by 15-20 seconds. The only times where I've seen someone fail the first wall was Tetsuya Sugaya who didn't even attempt the wall properly due to him timing out.

3) Reduce Stage 2's Time Limit - Simple. I just want Stage 2 to go back to its roots and be a speed stage. I want there to be a sense of urgency.

That's technically 4 changes as your number 2) consists of both a modification and a time limit reduction.

Either way, the Silk Slider was probably the the most dishonorable mention in terms of the ones I didn't pick. I just picked the Rolling Hill (which also meant having to allocate one of my other choices to a time limit reduction) over the Silk Slider as imo the former is far more offensive in terms of its contribution to an overly drawn out Stage 1, though the Silk Slider has also had a pretty big hand in allowing joke competitors to go farther than they deserve to, given that the Wing Slider that got replaced by it was a pretty reliable eliminator of fodder. Apparently there's going to be a live audience for 40 so the Covid rules are clearly more relaxed, so hopefully that means there's no reason to keep the Silk Slider anymore, though knowing Inui I wouldn't put it past him to not bother changing it. If it were up to me I'd just bring back the Wing Slider with steeper drops. In spite of my choice not to include it in my list, I agree the Silk Slider is a dreadful obstacle, even by incredibly low-bar third obstacle standards (which include abominatons like the Daasu Bridge).

I agree the Ni Ren Soritatsu Kabe has to single handedly be the laziest obstacle modification ever in the history of the show. I don't know what Inui was smoking when he decided to add it in 28, let alone bring it back in 39 instead of addressing the plethora of other issues concerned with Stage 1. I think it could've actually worked quite well if they made the first wall the same height as the normal one, and the second a bit taller like the Sasuke 31 wall height. I think what annoys me most about the whole situation is the fact that Inui complains about budget restrictions yet was perfectly happy to elongate the course by a good 10 metres or so (which apparently is very expensive) just to accommodate a D-tier first wall. Again though I personally think the imbalance of Stage 1 caused by the first half is a far more pertinent issue and addressing that could cut Stage 1's runtime by about half, and I'd take that any day over removing the first wall.

I think if Stage 2 were to remain exactly the same I'd say 90-95 seconds would be a good ballpark to aim for. 90 seconds would've resulted in only 3 clears in 39, while 95 would've resulted in 5. This is obviously a bit conservative given that competitors naturally go slower when they know they have more time/the klaxon isn't going off, but those kinds of numbers are much more appropriate for a renewal than the 9/14 we got, especially when 38 only had 5 clears out of the same number of attempts. I still cannot fathom why they decided to make the Rolling Log easier on a renewal tournament, other than that they were concerned about the log stopping like it did before, though just flat out nerfing it still seems like the easy option/a copout.

[m4tt3r0x]

Oct 18, 2022 14:11:21 GMT -5 dakohosu said:

including time limits, given that despite costing a grand total of 0 yen even that seems to be a big ask in Inui's world.

Genuinely lol'd hard right here

Oct 18, 2022 14:11:21 GMT -5 dakohosu said:

- The Backstream, Cliffhanger Dimension, Vertical Limit, and Wall Lift cannot be replaced or modified. 

I can understand the first three, but why not the Wall Lift?

Oct 18, 2022 14:11:21 GMT -5 dakohosu said:

Here are my three, unsurprisingly 2 of which are in Stage 1 and the third in Stage 2:
1. Replace the Rolling Hill with the Pole Maze 
2. Reduce Stage 1's time limit to 70 seconds 
3. Replace the Salmon Ladder Nobori/Kudari with the Swap Salmon Ladder, except instead of motorised rungs and DQ'ing lopsided transitions, just set a rule where if you land lopsided you have to notch down and redo the swap transitions from the lower rung. 



I picked 1 and 2 because you can't really have one without the other. Imo the Rolling Hill is the most in need of being replaced, as it allows for joke competitors to clear it by taking 60+ seconds on the obstacle which is not only painful to watch, but also having an obstacle that is a major deciding factor as to whether a competitor is likely to timeout that early into the stage isn't a good choice, given that if someone clears with 30 seconds left (which many do given how slow they seem to take it) the rest of their run is just a waste of time. I suggested the Pole Maze because it addresses all of these issues. Much less time to complete, and can also reliably eliminate competitors who have no right to get as far as they have done in 38-39. It also eliminates the biggest issue with the Quad Steps, in that competitors now have to complete them with enough momentum to get the pole to move, so the usual move of competitors grabbing on to each step is now discouraged. Obviously with the Rolling Hill gone the time limit can't stay the same, I reduced it from 100 to 70 seconds because imo a tighter time limit will make obstacles like the Fish Bone and Warped Wall, which penalise rushing, much more interesting to watch. I would've also picked the Silk Slider to get rid of, but I only had one more choice and wanted to make a change to Stage 2; the Double Warped Wall also sucks but with only 70 seconds it could catch a few more off guard. 

The Quad Steps into Pole Maze sounds like it could have very good potential. I like that it forces competitors to go fast against the Quad Steps. It would just have to built in a way that the pole isn't *too* hard to move imo. Great idea. I think the 30 second time reduction is a bit too strict. I know that eliminating the Rolling Hill would definitely cut a good chunk of time, but I think it'd be just a death sentence on competitors who maybe have a shot at clearing, but likely still won't (thinking Shingo, Matsuda, and even Kan Yutaka). That said the sentiment still sounds good to me. If I were to give a time reduction like that I think the most I'd go with is like 20 seconds.

As for the Swap Salmon Ladder, again I understand the sentiment very well. My only gripe is I don't like obstacles that have kind of arbitrary rules on them. I think this idea is going in the right direction though.

[m4tt3r0x]

cb I agree the Silk Slider is pretty bland. I was thinking after watching the old trimmed Sasuke tournaments uploaded to the main channel that a double Butterfly Wall could be cool as a replacement.

As for the Ni Ren's purpose, I think Nagano described it best when he said the natural technique required for the first wall affects competitors' technique against the second. He basically said that it's natural to run *into* the first wall just to grab the top given its lower height. Then for the second wall, Nagano himself said he got tripped up in 28 because he tried to use the same strategy against it as the first. That said, I agree that now that we have the tackle it is largely out of place lol!

Anyway as for the thread question, I think I'd have to go:
1. Replace Rolling Hill. Honestly I don't have too many ideas other than the Prism Tilt, but darkohosu's idea sounds great to me also.
2. Replace the Silk Slider for a double Butterfly Wall.
3. I'm gonna think on this one later.

[dakohosu]

m4tt3r0x

Admittedly I was torn between putting the Wall Lift in the 'cannot be changed' or 'can be modified' category; the reason I went with the former was purely because it's statistically the most unchanged obstacle relative to its tenure, so the thought of it being even modified and on a non-renewal tournament no less seemed unrealistic. Basically I was trying to prevent someone from suggesting something like the Water Walls lol.

Yeah the Pole Maze idea just seemed like a logical choice as it killed two birds with one stone (i.e. I wouldn't also have to replace the Quad Steps as well). I think it could work if the pole starts completely vertical/upright, compared to the Shin-Sasuke variants where it was heavily slanted to the wrong side and hence needed a huge run-up to get it to move across. I think the transition from the Quad Steps in and of itself will already eliminate most of the fodder, and you obviously can't get as good a run up transitioning from the former, so I think some compensation is allowed lol. 

Your comment about the time reduction is fair, though my logic behind this was the fact that we've regularly seen competitors reach the Dragon Glider with 50-60 seconds remaining, and even the wall with 30-40 seconds. The lower clear times are mainly because loads of competitors take absolutely ages to psyche themselves up for the wall. I figured if this time wasn't available then it could cause more casualties across the board, and given the Pole Maze would take about 5 seconds compared to 20+ for the Rolling Hill, it's llke-for-like only about a 15 second reduction, which is how long loads of guys take to start an attempt on the wall. I understand why some may still construe this as a bit harsh, but I do think it's a good approach for shaking up Stage 1's results rather than the same guys clearing time after time.

Interesting take on the Ni Ren, though I think the number of other competitors who would feel the same way is few and far between. If anything I feel like more competitors would see the first wall as a warm-up which would make the second wall feel easier. After all, even if you can bench 100kg, you're more likely to fail if you go straight into the 100kg than if you warm up on lighter weights. Besides, Sasuke 28 Nagano didn't really have the best mindset to clear Stage 1, being forcibly retired and openly admitting by that point he didn't enjoy competing. 

Double Butterfly Wall is an interesting concept; I always liked the premise of the original but felt like it was horribly implemented, and I also realise that making it three times the size like they did in ANW isn't viable due to the Japanese competitor's heights. A double variant imo could really bring the concept to life.

[m4tt3r0x]

Oh yeah I totally agree about the Ni Ren. It had a chance at mentally faking competitors out for the first one or two tournaments, but after that and probably for most competitors already it was a warm up. I was just defending its first initial debut.

As for my third replacement it'd have to be on the second stage. I think it'd have to be the Spider Walk that gets modified, because hey what's one more motor at this point maybe? I think the Salmon Ladder as is is bearable, and that the final string of three obstacles is already an absolutely brutal test of endurance.

[Dazed (Wiin)]

1. Tackle weight is increased to 1 Tonne in total (250 + 350 + 400 kg).
2. First wall of the Ni Ren Soritatsu Kabe is replaced by spinning log.
3. Revert Rolling Log in stage 2 back to the 38 length.

[azn]

In regards to the Quad Steps into Pole Maze idea (which I know isn't the first time you dakoosu has mentioned this idea, and it's because it's a great one) I would personally also eliminate the Quad steps entirely for something like the shrinking steps or for the steps to be shrunk down (akin to ANW's Piston Alley, just without it on a slope) as while the pole maze as already mentioned, will force competitors to have a running start, the quad steps in my eyes isn't the best at that as I can still see people cat crawl from the step to step. I'd much rather have a stepping obstacle that can't be manipulated to be slowed down to make it easier (i.e the aforementioned cat crawl technique), which is why I personally prefer the Shrinking Steps.

But anyways for my actual ideas:

1 - Replace Pipe Slider with Flying Bar
2 - Replace Flying Bar with a strength drainer leading directly into the sidewinder (Perhaps a return of the Roulette Cylinder, or an idea that i've suggested for a bit, but an upper body Music Box/Roulette Cylinder hybrid)
3 - Modify the Rolling Log to be a Sandan Rolling Log

Hopefully these 3 suggestions fit within the rules, otherwise I'll change them as neccessary.

[nekomi3]

Alright here is my take

1st Stage: replace Quad Step + Rolling Hill by Step Slider, revert Double Warped Wall to Warped Wall but make it 10cm higher
2nd Stage: replace Spider Walk and Spider Drop by Double Pendulum without a trampoline
3rd Stage: replace Flying Bar by Roulette Cylinder

[therealkksworld]

1. Replace the Silk Slider: The Silk Slider is way too easy. I believe 65 out of 69 cleared it in 39 and probably a similar ratio in 38. I think it's clear by making it 1 cloth and making the landing platform smaller hardly changes the difficulty of the obstacle. Some replacements for me include Jumper Cables, Cannonball Drop, or another track obstacle, maybe the Rolling Pin.

2. Decrease Stage 2's time limit to 90 seconds: Stage 2 was great in 38, but then it felt like a thorn in the behind again in 39. Hayate Kajihara cleared with 20 seconds left, and in my opinion, the fastest clear should only be with about 12-15 seconds left. Stage 2 is a speed stage, let's make it that again.

3. Rolling Log with drops: This would be similar to the Sandan Rolling Log/Maruta in SASUKE 13-17. Also, increase the length back to 38 levels, as that's where it did the most damage to the competitors.

[ahzoo]

Okie, so the easiest way to identify what needs changed and where, I feel as if the easiest way to look at everything is to simply and quickly run over the major flaws with each of the first 3 stages.

- The First Stage is so horrifically unbalanced that only the Fish Bone, Dragon Glider, and Tackle really work as intended.

The first three obstacles are so easy and have been figured out for so long that, if anything, they would really make more sense placed as a basic Trials course that all competitors should be able to clear in order to prove that they have the bare minimum athletic ability to warrant a space in the 100 on top of their being as old and their attempts being as boringly overlong and stale as to effectively suck all of the fun from proceedings and render the early part of the First Stage so unwatchable that even Inui saw the need to tweak the running order so as to make the slog somewhat bearable for those of us who don't care so much for the celebrities so much as the sport.

The Ni-Ren Sorikatsu Kabe, on the other hand is quite simply the worst possible anticlimax on which to end the stage - the starter wall achieves nothing at all other than diminishing the impact of the first wall, from both an athletic and "improving the show" standpoint, and literally anything at all that can be placed in the room it takes up would serve a better and more dramatic end to the stage other than the one we actually finish on - A Rope Swing into a Rope Climb/Rope Ladder both appear far more spectacular to a casual [it even non-casual] viewer than the same stunt repeated less impressively, they serve as a far more varied challenge to anyone who attempts to get through them, and lastly, as the overwhelming body of evidence has shown, they also act as far better time-sinks than a nerfed Warped Wall ever could.

FWIW, the Fish Bone also has its problems and is a bit stale too, but at least we can learn to live and work with it still, rather unlike the other parts of the course I have mentioned.

- The Second Stage relies too heavily on a time limit that isn't there in order to induce failures that can't be induced. While it is true that the Second Stage has always traditionally prioritised failing the stage by way of the time-out. This was historically due to the fact that the time limit that existed for most of the Golden Age [and intermittently throughout the Shin era] was so stringent as to demand perfection from the competitors who had made it that far. Even then, the obstacles in use within said Second Stages were for the most part, difficult enough so as to be failable from a technical standpoint, doubly so when you account for the fact that competitors were more often than not rushing through then in a bid to make up for lost time, and failures did not simply come about only because you happened to take three and two-thousandth femtoseconds longer on a given obstacle than the time-limit allocated.

Therefore, what in a perfect world would be a madcap and desperate dash to the line as you try hard to not slip up instead becomes a matter of "clear the Rolling Log and Salmon Ladder within 50ish seconds, and claim your free Third Stage pass" nature of the current course. Case in point, the only obstacle after the SLN which is in any way technically failable anymore is the Spider Drop, an obstacle that was never a massive threat to anybody, and which had long ago ceased to be feared by anybody not named Nagasaki Shunsuke. As is, when you can easily clear the stage long before the klaxon starts to wail, the second half of the stage essentially becomes a massive formality without any of the do-or-die excitement that it has always supposed to bring. Ideally, the Second Stage should be a stage that can take out most anyone, but as-is, it is just a bit of filler that's there to feature a few obstacles that need to be featured in Sasuke as if to fulfil a contractual obligation.

- The Third Stage, while no longer The Cliffhanger and Vertical Limit Show of yesteryear, is still ultimately far too unbalanced from a competitive perspective - every single obstacle to some extent relies almost entirely on grip strength and while the sheer technical challenge of every obstacle does go a long way towards making the stage exciting, at its core, the design of the stage makes clearing it simply a matter of practicing the required movements, and possesing an ungodly amount of upper-body grip strength that can be used in nearly limitless quantities. Therefore, if you want to make anybody not named Morimoto Yusuke the odds-on favourite to Kansen, this stage is where you ought to start.

Furthermore, the genreal consensus is that the layout of the stage could be greatly improved - The Flying Bar, while one of the most visually spectacular obstacles to see attempted is placed in a position where its ability to end runs on a whim isn't really beneficial, and has been nerfed out of existence as a result, while the Pipe Slider could not be a worse anti-climax to end the stage on, considering the fact that it is one of the few rare obstacles to actually have had a harder version of itself in use some 20 years ago than the version that we see now. Granted, those last two points are far closer to nitpicking though.

With these three issues in mind, these are my suggestions to refresh the whole course in a way that makes each stage better.

1. Replace the Silk Slider with 28's Rolling Escargot. - While I have hummed and hawwed as to whether or not I should add in a possible peplace,ent for the QS+RH combo which is the other major reason why the first half of the First Stage is so horrifically unbalanced, but, I decided against it on the grounds that 28's Rolling Escargot was so insanely difficult that IMO, anybody who was going to fail a buffed opening combo would more than certainly have failed the RE anyway.

Also, even if somebody is going to go through the Rolling Hill at a crawl, the Rolling Escargot was so named because it itself moved at a snail's pace by design [should any version of it start to spin remotely fast and you would run into the danger of competitors being either whiplashed or too dizzy to walk straight at all afterwards, not to mention how at that point, you would be likely to see the whole mechanism catastrophically fail], which all but assures that a slow competitor will time-out before they reach the Fish-Bone, even if they somehow survive the trial by nausea this obstacle effectively doubles as.

Furthermore, the time-sink nature of this obstacle [especially when compared with the Silk Slider of all things] might actually go quite a long way towards making the Ni-Ren Sorikatsu Kabe bearable, if simply because the obstacle so heavily relies on your being pinned up against the wall by the time limit [pardon the pun] that anything that can make the time limit actually seem threatening automatically serves to improve the Ni-Ren, even if ideally that too would be scrapped.

I do concede that it might run the risk of making the aforementiomed painfully slow runs feel like even more of a slog, but given the other knock-on effects [plus the aforementioned more even coating of the talent pool], I feel it is a reasonable enough trade-off to make. At bare minimum, it can't be any worse than what we are all used to lol.

2. Add in the Metal Spin [and a towel] between the Reverse Conveyor and the Wall Lift[. - In one fell swoop, we will make the back half of the Second Stage once again become eminently failable [if Nagano in his prime can fail this obstacle, so can anyone else], and once again make the time limit become a real threat - the Metal Spin, back when it was used would on average take between 4 to 7 seconds to complete. Once you account for the need for a competitor to dry their hands in order to try and complete the obstacle [as anyone who tries to rush past the towel will shortly become a perfect example of a second-degree time-out], the amount of time wasted on this obstacle can reasonably be assumed to be closer to 7-10 seconds per attempt.

Looking through the archives, had the Metal Spin been in place last time we would be able to have reduced the number of clears in the Second Stage from 9 to 4 on speed alone, which, given how the standard of competition wasn't particularly high that time save for Tada, Yoshiyuki and Matachi would bode well for the ability of such a buffed Stage 2 to trip most anybody up once again in the way that a good Second Stage always should.

Lastly, re: space, the Metal Spin was always a relatively comoact obstacle to the point where, most footage would indicate that the actual obstacle would only take out as much space as the amount by which the Rolling Log was shortened by last time out, so the change really shouldn't all that difficult to implement.

3. Replace the Pipe Slider with a Body Prop located before the VLK - This change is simply designed to even the playing field in a way that will not nerf the overall course, but at the same time, make it eminently feasible that any competitor, and not just Morimoto [who had stated his discomfort with the Body Prop on numerous occasions in the past] will have a hope in heck of clearing the Third Stage as designed.

I think that we can all agree that having the VLK immediately following the Cliffhanger Dimension is the teensiest, tiniest bit overkill. Your grip strength has just been sapped by one of the most ridiculous obstacles in Sasuke history, and indeed, the whole stage up to this point. Furthermore, as history has proven before, while the VLK becomes easier the further removed it is from the Cliffhanger, it by no means becomes easy, merely "actually semi-feasibly doable, I guess". Therefore, by adding in distance, we make the VLK possible for a wider range of competitors, which is an incredibly useful change to have made, given how as is, only one competitor has ever managed to defeat the obstacle, and we badly need for others to have a chance.

That said, while the Body Prop doesn't deplete one's grip strength, it does still eat away at one's stamina rather completely given the fact that you have to maintain your core strength throughout this whole ordeal. This little trick alone is enough to cause quite a lot of big headaches, as by this point, most of the people to still be left alove to complete the Body Prop tend to be the most extreme of Third Stage Specialists, the most egregious freaks of nature who can do nigh anything with their grip strength... but conversely tend to have rather underdeveloped core strengths. As such, the effort spent on having to keep onself propped up against the walls for an extended period of time would more than likely counteract any benefit to be gained from not having to use one's grip strength for another two minutes. Interviews suggest the most recent champion is a part of this latter camp, which makes me believe that this nerf/buff might well be the solution to the stagnant results Sasuke has grown used to over the last decade.

Lastly, IMO, the extreme-enducrance nature of the VLK in my opinion makes it better placed as the final obstacle than the Pipe Slider ever could be. Because your success on the VLK for a large part relies on your being able to conserve enough of your energy to reach the very end, and to survive the immense difficulty of the transitions within it. Put simply, it manages to carry the best traits of both the Pipe Slider and the Flying Bar, and given the fact that the Pipe Slider is widely seen as such a formality that the VLK has effectively already served in this role for years, where it has proven itself to be an incredibly tense gripping, and exciting finish in that role, I see no reason as to why we still need to keep the formalities in place.

Finally, much as I know that the following is cheating, I would like to offer some other "lesser priority" changes that, while it would more than certainly nice to have, for some reason or another, I deem then less effective of a renewal if my goal is to in any way to match Sasuke 5's efficiency at making each and every change count as much as possible:

HM - Dakohosu and M4tt3r0x 's Rolling Hill Replacements - Part of the reason I went after the Silk Slider to RE conversion instead was simply because I didn't want to parrot either of your brilliant changes and actually add something new to this conversation, though, personally, part of me wonders if a Prism See-Saw to Pole Maze combo could work also, given how the Prism See-Saw naturally forces you to build up speed before jumping as you attempt it, even though you would need to somehow prevent people from hitting the actual Pole Maze track that way.

HM - Replace the first Warped Wall with a buffed Great Wall. - it would be a far more interesting, and quite possibly an equally challenging obstacle, provided that you can provide some sort of cushioning for the event that someone fails to grab hold of the rope or otherwise gives out partway, and also, the actual rope climb itself can serve as a perfect call-back to the way in which the First Stage ended back during the Golden Age.

HM - Convert the Spider Walk into the Jumping Spider - Sorry. I just had to.

HM - Replace the Spider Drop and climb up to the Backstream with an Unstable Bridge right after the Spider Walk - Not only would this transition actually prove a lot harder than the Spider Drop ever was, but the Unstable Bridge is still an excellent technicall challenge, on top of serving as an upper-body curveball in a section of the Second Stage that primarily focuses on other areas of a competitor's skillset.

HM - Bring back the Drum Hopper Kai, and tie it to the Bar Glider. - An amazing "slow burn" starting combo that taxes both an area of the upper body that the current Third Stage [or rest of the course in general, really] fails to, paired with the perfect technical challenge of the transition and the initial dismount to make for a very compelling and visually exiting combo. Nixed for spatial considerations. Also, would require that one buffs the Flying Bar in some way to make up for the difficulty of the jump preceding it.

and lastly, I do appreciate that this is doubly cheating, but:

HM - Invoke the many, many, MANY historical precedents in which a Final Stage version was changed without being attempted, and replace the 10m Rock Wall with a 10m Spider Trap. - Simply put, the Final Stage that was proposed by Inui last year could not be more obviously unbalanced and overly-reliant on upper-body/grip strength if it tried. Every single component of it is reliant on your upper-body strength being up to snuff and only the Tsuna Nobari can have one;s lower body be in any way actively involved in helping to propel one up the tower faster. This, coupled with the fact that climbing a rock wall as quickly as possible is a specialised skillset that only professional rock climbers tend to have. Morimoto Yusuke just so happens to moonlight as one. So, not only is this tower unbalanced, it activeky plays into the strengths of the competitor who is most likely to attempt it at the expense of everyone else.

By contrast, the Spider Trap's nature as an obstacle that relies on core and lower-body raw strength, plays into one of Morinoto's traditional weaknesses [and indeed a more general weakness one can find among most of the Final Stage elite], helps to make it so that the tower now has a lower-body technical challenge, an upper-body technical challenge, and lastly a whole-body burst of explosive leftover strength. As I'm outright eviscirating all of the guidelines at this point, I would like to suggest a tower consisting of 10m Spider Trap [50cm gap], 7m Spider Ladder Jugo Dan, and a 10m G-Rope with a 50s time-limit as a blueprint of the type of tower one ought to be making if you want to stop Morimoto, or at the bare minimum, delay the inevitable third Kanzen until 2025 at least lol.

...will admit, may've gotten a bit too into this challenge lol.

[azn]

Oct 18, 2022 14:11:21 GMT -5 dakohosu said:

- The Salmon Ladder, Tackle, Warped Wall, Swing Edge, Fish Bone, and Dragon Glider must stay but can be modified.

I know I've said my suggestions but I'm just curious about this particular rule

When you mean by "must stay" does that mean that they must stay in the tournament AND stay in their respective stage?

[dakohosu]

Oct 19, 2022 10:16:06 GMT -5 azn said:

Oct 18, 2022 14:11:21 GMT -5 dakohosu said:

- The Salmon Ladder, Tackle, Warped Wall, Swing Edge, Fish Bone, and Dragon Glider must stay but can be modified.

I know I've said my suggestions but I'm just curious about this particular rule

When you mean by "must stay" does that mean that they must stay in the tournament AND stay in their respective stage?

I'll go with yes purely on the basis that most of the above have become iconic and synonymous with the stage in which they're based. Also, for the sake of efficiency, moving an obstacle from Stage X to Stage Y would count as two of your three mods given that it would result in Stage X needing a new obstacle to replace the one moved, and one of Stage Y's obstacles being replaced by that moved from Stage X. Even if it was a case of just swapping the obstacles, it would still constitute as two changes due to the structural costs required. What idea did you have that sparked this question? 

[dt]

1 - Remove steps/hill combo and replace with Downhill Jump with a rope to catch but you just drop down from the rope as opposed to sliding down a track like the original stage 2 version. That way it is a reasonable amount of space and also so it wouldn’t require barely any upper body strength to finish the first obstacle. I think it would be a different and exciting way to start off stage 1.

2 - Stage 2 time limit reduced to something that would require competitors to go fast the entire time.

3 - Change out the Sidewinder with a body prop that has a section where you would have to traverse across, down, and then across again. Like this. —|__

[dakohosu]

Oct 19, 2022 9:59:18 GMT -5 ahzoo said:

...will admit, may've gotten a bit too into this challenge lol.

Fantastic points as always. I usually eat my dinner over some YouTube videos but instead read your entire reply lol. Could get into a massive discussion over this (after all it was a massive reply.....) but just few things I wanted to touch on:

- Had I picked the Silk Slider to modify my main choice WOULD have also been the Escargot, my only concern is that its function is a bit too similar to the Rolling Log and repetition is always something they've tried to avoid in Sasuke (e.g. when they added the Jumping Spider to Stage 1, they removed the Spider Walk from Stage 2). That said, doing the Fish Bone and Salmon Ladder dizzy require two completely different approaches. The Escargot is also a great obstacle to ween out the fodder, which is what is so desperately needed to effectively halve Stage 1's runtime.

- Your Stage 3 suggestions technically count as two modifications as you're replacing the Vertical Limit with the Body Prop, and the Pipe Slider with the Vertical Limit, but I'll let you off as feeling nice today lol. I do actually rate this idea though, especially with the Body Prop being the hardest non-grip intensive Stage 3 obstacle we've had, so it manages to reduce some of the bias towards overly technical finger tippy stuff while still adhering to the latter half of Stage 3 being the most nail-biting aspect of the tournament. After all, Sean McColl failed it on ANW which is all I need to hear. It would be cool to have some moving panels, similar to the Planet Bridge, but with one having to actually prop themselves between the walls rather than on top of the spheres, it would make the affair exponentially harder.

- The VLK as the final obstacle could actually work. I suppose we've been used to there being one final hurdle in the form of the jump, but with the Pipe Slider being as underwhelming as it is, that hype is effectively gone now. One cool idea could be a sort of a T-junction at the end of the third ledge, where you grab a perpendicular VL ledge and face the landing platform, and use whatever grip strength you have left to perform an explosive jump to the finish.

- As someone who's done calisthenics for 5+ years, transitioning from an upright dip position to catching a bar a few feet above you is virtually impossible for most people and even if not requires years of practice, hence I think transitioning from the Drum Hopper to Bar Glider is is liiiiiiiittle far-fetched. Drum Hopper to Sidewinder could just about work, but even that is pushing it a bit. 

- Spider Trap would be a great progression from the previous Final Stage so I like that idea, especially if they keep the time limit at maybe 50 seconds or so. It would also be an interesting paradox in the sense that most competitors who are strong enough to clear Stage 3 are typically smaller lighter guys, who would inherently struggle more with weighted pushing movements. I've also been probably the biggest critic in terms of the rock wall being too biased towards climbers and effectively shutting non-climbers out on a course that's already far too grip based. Unfortunately I feel as though the damage has already been done because of marketing. All of the previous Final Stages that were changed were never marketed as much as this new variant is and were either only known about through photos or are still to this day not defined, thus making them easy to slyly change under the radar. A good proportion of 39's marketing material was allocated to this new obstacle that was very obviously a rock wall, and they even showed professional climbers testing the stage as well. As a result, everyone (except for us clearly lol) knows it's going to be a rock wall and so Inui has to commit otherwise it seems like a massive copout. It's a similar story to making the Cliffhanger easier; it's a logical decision on a course balancing level, but the majority of fans would be disappointed as they aren't as introspective and analytical as we are. They just want bigger and badder obstacles, even if they're worsening the issues we constantly outline on this forum.

[azn]

Oct 19, 2022 13:32:54 GMT -5 dakohosu said:

Oct 19, 2022 10:16:06 GMT -5 azn said:

I know I've said my suggestions but I'm just curious about this particular rule

When you mean by "must stay" does that mean that they must stay in the tournament AND stay in their respective stage?

I'll go with yes purely on the basis that most of the above have become iconic and synonymous with the stage in which they're based. Also, for the sake of efficiency, moving an obstacle from Stage X to Stage Y would count as two of your three mods given that it would result in Stage X needing a new obstacle to replace the one moved, and one of Stage Y's obstacles being replaced by that moved from Stage X. Even if it was a case of just swapping the obstacles, it would still constitute as two changes due to the structural costs required. What idea did you have that sparked this question? 

Yeahhh, I kinda figured that was the case.

I actually had 2 ideas which involved the dragon glider and salmon ladder, and that was to move the dragon glider to the 2nd stage (as a sort of successor to the slider drop) and to move the salmon ladder to the third stage, and if these 2 changes would occur in the same tournament, I would put the dragon glider as the 2nd obstacle in exchange for the salmon ladder instead of the first obstacle (meaning that the rolling log would still remain as the first obstacle)

In terms of the other move, the salmon ladder to the third stage is an idea I've been intrigued about considering that while the current iteration isn't terrible by all means, it's also not as effective as past iterations.

Moving the salmon ladder entirely to the third would mean that the second stage would essentially return to being a strict endurance based course, with speed and coordination being major focus points also (and adding the aforementioned dragon glider move adds another element of precision, more so given that the rolling log precedes it) wheras the salmon ladder could then be modified into a version that could involve various parts of past iterations with new elements done in other spin-offs to create some crazy monstrosity.

[subtleagent]

For the first two: Spin Bridge replaces Quad Steps, Pole Maze replaces Rolling Hill and the Spin Bridge segways into the Pole Maze.

Finally, I would replace the Silk Slider with Domino Hill.

I figure with two of the first three obstacles being balanced based it could trim the fat and maybe prove lethal enough to solve the Yusuke problem. LOL

[dakohosu]

Oct 19, 2022 19:32:38 GMT -5 azn said:

Oct 19, 2022 13:32:54 GMT -5 dakohosu said:

I'll go with yes purely on the basis that most of the above have become iconic and synonymous with the stage in which they're based. Also, for the sake of efficiency, moving an obstacle from Stage X to Stage Y would count as two of your three mods given that it would result in Stage X needing a new obstacle to replace the one moved, and one of Stage Y's obstacles being replaced by that moved from Stage X. Even if it was a case of just swapping the obstacles, it would still constitute as two changes due to the structural costs required. What idea did you have that sparked this question? 

Yeahhh, I kinda figured that was the case.

I actually had 2 ideas which involved the dragon glider and salmon ladder, and that was to move the dragon glider to the 2nd stage (as a sort of successor to the slider drop) and to move the salmon ladder to the third stage, and if these 2 changes would occur in the same tournament, I would put the dragon glider as the 2nd obstacle in exchange for the salmon ladder instead of the first obstacle (meaning that the rolling log would still remain as the first obstacle)

In terms of the other move, the salmon ladder to the third stage is an idea I've been intrigued about considering that while the current iteration isn't terrible by all means, it's also not as effective as past iterations.

Moving the salmon ladder entirely to the third would mean that the second stage would essentially return to being a strict endurance based course, with speed and coordination being major focus points also (and adding the aforementioned dragon glider move adds another element of precision, more so given that the rolling log precedes it) wheras the salmon ladder could then be modified into a version that could involve various parts of past iterations with new elements done in other spin-offs to create some crazy monstrosity.

I actually think the Dragon Glider could work in Stage 2, though in my humble opinion it would've been a better replacement for, say, the Metal Spin, or even the Backstream and Reverse Conveyer combined, than the Salmon Ladder. Like that do-or-die second to last obstacle (similar to something like Roulette Row) that penalises rushing which, if the time limit is short enough which have always been the case for the best Stage 2s, is often the case given how late it is into the stage. Besides, the Dragon Glider takes up an obscene amount of space while the Salmon Ladder doesn't as it involves primarily vertical transitions. The only issue would be finding a suitable Stage 1 replacement, especially considering that the Dragon Glider has effectively become the Cliffhanger of said stage due to it being the only genuinely difficult obstacle, hence said replacement would need to be difficult; maybe a buffed Slider Jump kind of obstacle? We haven't had any net obstacles for a while, idk. Or even a Wingnut Alley lache-based kind of obstacle to fill up that huge space, though obviously nowhere near as hard as the ANW version.

I do like the idea of the Salmon Ladder being a Stage 3 obstacle, but it would need to either be significantly buffed or combined with another obstacle given how it's become a non-issue for most competitors, let alone those who are capable of getting that far to begin with. The first thought that came to my head was replacing the Flying Bar with a Double Salmon Ladder (and subsequently the Pipe Slider with the fully fledged Flying Bar), while the Sidewinder is elevated such that you can only reach it from the top rung, or at least it's much more difficult to do so from a lower position (high-risk high-reward option, though for Inui that seems to always result in an auto-DQ....). I think that fits the first obstacle of Stage 3 much better, given that it should always be a grip/strength drainer rather than something as outright failable as the Flying Bar, which can anticlimactically end a competitor's run within 5 seconds. Not saying the DSL isn't failable, but at least any poor transitions are recoverable, unlike the Flying Bar where it's either land correctly or immediately fail. 

The only thing I can't work out is what to replace the Salmon Ladder in Stage 2 with. It probably isn't the best idea to have the SL on 3 out of 4 stages due to repetition being something the producers have always tried to avoid, so if it were to be added to Stage 3, then I'd say replace the Stage 2 variant, as I personally love the concept of the Jugo Dan on Stage 4. It would also need to be an obstacle that's notoriously harder while dizzy, otherwise the Rolling Log is kind of pointless given how few people have actually failed it. I suppose the Rumbling Dice could work? I can imagine it would be incredibly difficult to navigate what are effectively a set of monkey bars while your head is pounding. It would also somewhat address the time limit issue Stage 2's been having recently, given that the weaker competitors used to take absolute aaaaages on the obstacle (Daisuke Nakata would always take upwards of a minute, which alone would mean one would only have like 20 seconds left for the rest of the stage).

[Ninja Relaxer]

Small changes, because big ones are too unlikely:

1. Stage 1: Replace the Rolling Hill with literally anything. I don't like "slow down" obstacles in Stage 1 to begin with, especially not this early in the course. The non-serious competitors should be knocked out before they get to an obstacle that requires slow and careful maneuvering, otherwise they eat up too much screen-time.

2. Stage 1: Bring back the Jumping Spider or Half-Pipe Attack or some other speed-oriented Stage 1 obstacle. Stage 1 feels too short at 7 obstacles, and many of the current obstacles are too slow and require competitors to stop before attempting them (Fish Bone to get the timing down, Silk Slider to grab onto the curtains, etc.). I want to see competitors race through the course, not move slowly through each obstacle.

3. Stage 2: Bring back the Metal Spin. It was one of the best Stage 2 obstacles and added a lot of suspense/tension to a stage that is currently lacking in both.