How I would change Stage 2

[subtleagent]

Okay so just when it looks like Stage 2 FINALLY got the buff it needed, it gets a nerf (the Rolling Log, you know the one saving grace of the stage at this point?) and we're back to hardly anyone failing it. I really don't get the logic behind nerfing the log either, it's not like 38's results were THAT bad that there weren't going to be Stage 3 attempts, nerfing the log was probably the worst decision since nerfing the Unstable Bridge in 28.

The Salmon Ladder Nobori/Kudari is hardly failed bar freak circumstance like Yusuke Goto and frankly I think it needs to go. This version of the Spider Walk is the same deal, aside from freak fails almost no one really fails it. Also, the Spider Drop needs to be ripped out and tossed into a vat of boiling oil at this point. It's the single most overused obstacle out there. Backstream/Reverse Conveyor/Wall Lift combo probably isn't leaving anytime soon so why bother with those? Even with all that there is literally nothing stopping them from reducing the time limit.

All in all I would put the Rolling Log back to it's 38 length since nerfing it is not how you do a renewal. Salmon Ladder Nobori/Kudari would probably change to where the same bar is used a la the Double Salmon Ladder except there would be barriers like En Garde from ANW 10 had to prevent competitors from skipping rungs.

Spider Walk needs moving panels back, for all of Inui's use of motors he fails to use them for something that would shake up Stage 2 again, and maybe the Spider Drop can be elevator panels that drop because at this point competitors seem to be able to use the top of the curved walls to drop out of the Spider Drop. They don't even do the whole drop.

The final 3 obstacles can stay I guess since Inui clearly aint replacing them anytime soon, but a 10 or even 15 second time cut would be nice given sense of urgency in Stage 2 hasn't been an issue in forever. Yeah we got 3 time outs this time, but that was out of 12 people. All in all I'm sick of this Stage 2 and I know I'm not alone here. It's been the same stagnant filler stage since 2012.

[hoseasasuke]

Put the Backstream before the Spider Walk and not after it. Replace the Nobori/Kudari with the Swap Salmon Ladder, with no fraudulent disqualification rule and no technical glitches. Modify the Rolling Maruta and make it like the 13-17 version.

[dakohosu]

Honestly I'm going to be a realist here and just say reduce the time limit. Besides, when 38's Stage 2 was a complete bloodbath, most of the common complaints about Stage 2 seemed to dissipate, despite most of the issues still being present (the Backstream still being there etc.).

If they're going to keep the nerfed Rolling Log (which I suspect they probably will) then I'd say reduce it to 90 seconds for a real crunch. The last three obstacles are much more exciting to watch when it's a real fight against time; the main reason they're hated so much is that unfailable + lenient time limit = boring and predictable.

I would really like to see the SLN/K go though as it's overstayed its welcome and it's just far too easy, especially now the Rolling Log dizziness has been trained for and has been nerfed anyway. I agree with hoseasasuke on the Swap variant coming back, or if we're being really stingy just increase the rung distance to like 60cm. I think that would be sufficiently hard without 'breaking the bank' per se, and would ween out a lot of the weaker competitors earlier on.

Also, here's a wacky idea that I know will never happen. Make some of the Spider Walk ledges move inwards and outwards. It's never been tried before and I feel like it could be genuinely quite hard. It'll force competitors to have to wait and hesitate more and thus would prompt more of a panic rush at the end of the stage.

[ahzoo]

1. Add Sandan drops to Rolling Log. - As mentioned by others, the Rolling Log on its own is one of the things that made 38's Stage 2 so good and as 39 proved, anything that limits its use only makes the course easier. Therefore, Buff it, and do all you can to make the Log end runs before they've begun.

2. Add variable ledge heights to Salmon Ladder Nobori and uneven cradles to Salmon Ladder Kudari. - The former simply takes the principle of the infamous final transition from the first SL and applying its rhythm-breaking principle further, while the latter serves to further increase the difficulty of holding on to the bar as competitors are still battling the dizziness from the Rolling Hill.

3. Convert the Spider Walk into the Jumping Spider. - Why hasn't this been done yet? Stage 2's traditionally meant to be a speed-stage, so by modifying its longest-tenured obstacle by converting it into one of the most infamous obstacles of the Shin era and making momentum all the more important in order to tackle it, one will ensure that this focus is kept, while also adding in a new possible point of failure to an obstacle that sadly, rarely has one anymore.

4. Replace the Reverse Conveyor with the Metal Spin - Makes the back half of the course failable by implementing a fared former obstacle while also adding in difficulty in the form of a grip-based obstacle placed when competitors have just been for a quick dip in the Backstream [which I do dislike and would've thrown out yesterday, but its potential as a parasitic obstacle like the Tackle is too good to waste IMO].

5. Cut the Time Limit - At its best, Stage 2's biggest threat lies in the need to try and rush to get the course done as the time limit wasn't lenient enough. Ideally, this would be done by setting the time limit low, and lowering it a few seconds automatically each tournament as was done in the Golden Age, and as should've been done last time - Stage 2 between Sasuke 7 and 17 saw all of 3 course changes, but the consistent slashing kept the stage as a feared threat. Even if it's a lazy approach, it can still work wonders, provided it is used.

[zoran]

Dec 31, 2021 12:26:00 GMT -5 ahzoo said:

1. Add Sandan drops to Rolling Log. - As mentioned by others, the Rolling Log on its own is one of the things that made 38's Stage 2 so good and as 39 proved, anything that limits its use only makes the course easier. Therefore, Buff it, and do all you can to make the Log end runs before they've begun.

2. Add variable ledge heights to Salmon Ladder Nobori and uneven cradles to Salmon Ladder Kudari. - The former simply takes the principle of the infamous final transition from the first SL and applying its rhythm-breaking principle further, while the latter serves to further increase the difficulty of holding on to the bar as competitors are still battling the dizziness from the Rolling Hill.

3. Convert the Spider Walk into the Jumping Spider. - Why hasn't this been done yet? Stage 2's traditionally meant to be a speed-stage, so by modifying its longest-tenured obstacle by converting it into one of the most infamous obstacles of the Shin era and making momentum all the more important in order to tackle it, one is helping to

4. Replace the Reverse Conveyor with the Metal Spin - Makes the back half of the course failable by implementing a fared former obstacle while also adding in difficulty in the form of a grip-based obstacle placed when competitors have just been for a quick dip in the Backstream [which I do dislike and would've thrown out yesterday, but its potential as a parasitic obstacle like the Tackle is too good to waste IMO].

5. Cut the Time Limit - At its best, Stage 2's biggest threat lies in the need to try and rush to get the course done as the time limit wasn't lenient enough. Ideally, this would be done by setting the time limit low, and lowering it a few seconds automatically each tournament as was done in the Golden Age, and as should've been done last time - Stage 2 between Sasuke 7 and 17 saw all of 3 course changes, but the consistent slashing kept the stage as a feared threat. Even if it's a lazy approach, it can still work wonders, provided it is used.

Metal Spin after Backstream will never work unless competitors are allowed to use a quick towel on their hands.

[dakohosu]

I actually thought about the uneven Salmon Ladder rung idea myself (Yuuji posted a video of him doing the Salmon Ladder completely lopsided and sparked that thought); I think it would be better on the way up though as it requires a lot more coordination and finesse, whereas on the way down competitors can just notch the bar down side by side, which is probably easier than the normal Kudari variant.

And yeah, zoran is right. Even if you wipe down your hands anything that prioritises grip strength will be nigh on impossible (for reference, try doing a wet Cliffhanger lol, Yoshiyuki can tell you); also chalk wouldn't work as most chalk rubs off with water. A Balance Tank might just work though. It's equivalently failable and has taken out so many big names in its time, while I feel like as long as the tank is made out of, say, wood and not metal, it's hard enough to cause significant damage but not impossibly so.

[ahzoo]

Yeah, having thought about it further, the exact reason I thought the Metal Spin would be a good follow-up is the exact reason why that miss is frankly, impossible, and my naive thought that the time the competitors miss trying to dry off would be a good way of increasing time pressure is just unfair on them.

I do like the idea of a Balance Tank after the Backstream though, as provided it isn't a material that's an endemic slipping hazard, competitors would still be disadvantaged by the Backstream preceding the obstacle, albeit not excessively. It would have to also be the Golden Age version for much the same reason; the Shin/Rope Ladder version is just as grip-dependent as the Metal Spin.

As for the SLN/K issue, I'd admit that those difficulty spikes are more-or-less interchangeable, but I felt that the order I used would better fit under the "the true obstacle is rushing" nature of the Stage 2 I wanted to bring back, though if you reverse it, you'd also help make the Rolling Log all the more impactful in large part because of the finesse required.

Also, to add to the moving panel Spider Walk discussion, would applying them to the Spider Drop such that one has to time one's dismount along with extending the climb-down's length to maybe something like the downward section of the Golden Age Walk be a good buff? One would not only need to time one's dismount [which is another case of needing to waste precious seconds one doesn't've], but if it's a long enough climb-down, one can end up Jovtchev-ing the final part if they don't move quickly enough.

Of course, the latter would be a fine balancing act in terms of making it long enough to have that be an issue, and not making it so long that it becomes an inevitability. That said, if they can find that sweet spot, the moving panels can prove deadly.

[empressdowager]

I think the rolling log is a bit repetitive, and would like to see it back to the old configuration of the first thing being the metal spin. It just makes for a lot more dramatic of a moment, while rolling log makes kind of sudden and unexpected disappointment.

I'll always be against the backstream because it was a big nemesis of Shingo Yamamoto back in his day, and now just seems to waste time. Like, as a viewer it's hard to see what's going on. Make it a balance obstacle, of which there are none in the second stage.

The spider walk and reverse conveyor are so, so tricky. Like, it's such a judgement call on whether a competitor stepped out of bounds or not, and it can be a real disappointment when a competitor gets retroactively disqualified. I'd love to see a spider jump, as well as perhaps a more fairly judgable crawling portion.

I'm actually a huge fan of the salmon ladder and think it should stay. It was good at weeding out competitors when it was first introduced, and really taxes a competitor's strength.

All in all Stage 2 is probably my least favourite part of the program. But I've enjoyed some of the suggestions others have put forward here, and would heartily support a revamp.

[ArbuthnotBlob]

Honestly I don’t mind Stage 2 as much as a lot of people do, I think the Rolling Log spiced it up nicely - I suspect it was shortened to make it function a bit more reliably, even if that dulled its effectiveness a bit. Lower the time limit to account for how quickly the field has adapted to its effects and I think current S2 is fine, at least for 1 or maaaybe 2 more goes.

The Salmon Ladder could definitely use a freshen up at this point, and I personally really like Spider Walk so I’d never advocate for its replacement, but agree that seeing the original moving walls back would be a nice upgrade. Spider Drop, however, just slows the stage down at this point so I wouldn’t mind seeing it disappear.

My main problem with Stage 2 at the moment is that I feel like it lacks a proper visual identity. Sure there’s the yellow mats and circuit decoration on the Salmon Ladder but it’s all a bit clinical in my eyes - I miss the All-Star era S2 with the industrial/stained glass theming - I would almost take a strong visual upgrade for S2 (and S1) over any major obstacle changes - but that’s my love of the Crystal Maze and Raven talking xD

[Ninja Relaxer]

Jan 1, 2022 1:58:34 GMT -5 empressdowager said:

Any time the announcer says "CLIMBING SHOES MAKER" or "CAR DESIGNER"

Heh. Don't forget my personal favorite, "TRAMPOLINE PERFORMER."

As for Stage 2, I didn't even notice the log had been nerfed; it seemed to do a good job of discombobulating people. That said, I would love to see the Spider Walk replaced with the Jumping Spider, one of my favorite obstacles. Reducing the time-limit also sounds like a good, budget-friendly way to increase the stage's difficulty.

Personally, though, I'd much rather see changes made to Stage 1. It's the stage that takes up the most screen-time (all 100 competitors run it), so you get more bang for your buck by updating it.

[ytf]

Add balance tank directly after spider drop. It makes the spider drop worthwhile since it requires a smooth landing on the tank

[dakohosu]

Jan 3, 2022 9:03:10 GMT -5 ytf said:

Add balance tank directly after spider drop. It makes the spider drop worthwhile since it requires a smooth landing on the tank

Wouldn't that be dangerous? If the competitor slips on the Spider Drop they'd fall directly on the tank.

[Ninja Relaxer]

I don't think Health & Safety would allow a Balance Tank at all these days under any circumstances. A fall on the tail-bone could paralyze someone for life, and Bunpei nearly broke his neck. It's an absurdly dangerous obstacle.

[subtleagent]

Tbf the only reason this happened is because the Tank rolled all the way to the mat. If they had stoppers like 24 ~ 27's version did that could rectify the issue. ANW 4's was probably the most ridiculously difficult because the track was super long and the tank was in a perfect circle where you have to force it over two stoppers instead of using the mechanism the original had. But that was more due to faulty course design rather than actual difficulty.

I would say put the tank in front of the Spider Drop rather than below it. The biggest problem with the Spider Drop has always been that people just jump from the top of the lower walls. Maybe they could add a bar like 7 ~ 17's version had.

[dakohosu]

Jan 3, 2022 13:46:42 GMT -5 subtleagent said:

Tbf the only reason this happened is because the Tank rolled all the way to the mat. If they had stoppers like 24 ~ 27's version did that could rectify the issue. ANW 4's was probably the most ridiculously difficult because the track was super long and the tank was in a perfect circle where you have to force it over two stoppers instead of using the mechanism the original had. But that was more due to faulty course design rather than actual difficulty.

I would say put the tank in front of the Spider Drop rather than below it. The biggest problem with the Spider Drop has always been that people just jump from the top of the lower walls. Maybe they could add a bar like 7 ~ 17's version had.

You can still have a similar accident of banging your head if you roll off the front of the tank regardless of whether the tank rolls all the way or not. The only solution would be to make the tank out of a soft padded material which I feel could work. I do think not allowing the tank to roll to the end is a good shout though, to prevent a Sasuke 12 Koji Yamada situation.

And yeah the Spider Drop is such a minor hurdle that it’s an insult to call it a separate obstacle rather than just being part of the Spider Walk. I’d rather they modified the entire Spider Walk to have moving panels like in 5-6 than keep the original with the drop section. The only people who ever failed it were those who rushed and then Shunsuke who’s not exactly got the best history with the obstacle.....

Or just bring back the Jumping Spider. The jump portion adds an element of do-or-die that we’ve been missing since the Balance Tank and Metal Spin were removed.

[yomerengues]

2nd Stage Sasuke 39:
1. *Rolling Log
2. Salmon Ladder Nobori
3. Salmon Ladder Kudari
4. Spider Walk
5. Spider Drop
6. Backstream
7. Reverse Conveyor
8. Wall Lifting
Time Limit: 105 Seconds

My 2nd Stage Sasuke 40:
1. Rolling Log
2. *Salmon Ladder Nobori
3. * Salmon Ladder Kudari
4. Spider Walk
5. *Spider Drop
6. Backstream
7. *Balance Tank
8. Reverse Conveyor
9. Wall Lifting
Time Limit: 115 Seconds

Modifications:
Uprade 2 more rungs to SL Nobori and 1 more for Kudari
Upgrade Spider Drop from 1.80m to 2.00m
Return Balance Tank with a larger track and rope ladder attached