Best all-round competitor

[dakohosu]

Who do you think is the best all-round competitor? I don’t mean in terms of Sasuke specifically (the answer to that would be too obvious...) but in terms of general all-round athleticism: speed, power, upper body strength, consistency, adaptability etc.

In terms of all the competitors we’ve seen I’d have to go with Kong. The guy’s made Stage 3 more times than anyone bar three All-Stars who competed for much longer and throughout a span of 15 years as well. He also managed to display immense raw strength (like his Wall Lift attempts) several times but at the same time was always one of the fastest competitors on Stages 1 and 2 even into his late 40s. He also had tremendous upper body strength as he always made it to at least the Cliffhanger and even cleared the stage once. So for me it’s gotta be Kong due to excelling I’m so many fields that would typically work against one another.

There’s also he who shall not be named as well, who was probably the best rounded competitor of the recent era due to being among the most consistent yet most powerful and quick competitors on the field, arguably stronger than even Morimoto in every element except for Stage 3. Alas......

I think in terms of the current roster of competitors, Yoshiyuki Yamamoto defo strikes me as a ‘has it all’ sort of profile. His Stage 2 times in both his attempts are an indicator of his speed and power, but he’s also a fierce contender on Stage 3 as well. He’s definitely a dark horse as I’m saying all of this despite him having competed only twice.

Also the reason why I said not Sasuke specific, beyond people just picking Morimoto, is because I feel that Sasuke is too biased towards guys under 5’4 with massive forearms and rock climbing backgrounds/years of Cliffhanger training. Just look at the two most recent champions (which span all of the Kanzens over the last 11 years).

[subtleagent]

I'd say in terms of longevity: Takeda. Not only has he managed to make it to the Third Stage more times than anyone, but has shown he is capable of clearing Stage 1 as old as 45 with a time faster than most of the younger guys. Yeah he was in a really bad slump during the RISING era, but ever since Nagano retired, he seems to have overcome that to an extent. Probably because he wants to keep the All-Stars afloat as long as he can and with Shingo pocketed by Stage 1 he's the one to look at for success.

In terms of success, Morimoto with Yuuji as a close second. Obviously for their Kanzens, but for their impact in that they would often clear while so many struggled. Plus Yuuji reached Stage 3 in 37 and nearly beat it and almost beat 38's exponentially harder Stage 2 at 42 despite it arguably being his weakest stage.

Nagano for his five finals. No explanation necessary. But I also want to give props to Akira Omori for being the first consistent competitor, though he hit the biggest decline ever he still opened the flood gates for others to train and gain some consistency of their own.

And despite his misdeeds, yes D*** for how consistent he was and how he would have likely Kanzened in SASUKE had he not been a POS scumbag. Jumping Vertical Limit ledges, you can't get any more intense than that.

Currently, I would say other chances of success besides Morimoto would be Yoshiyuki, Tada, and maybe Isa if he trains more on the Cliffhanger.

[dakohosu]

Nagano and Takeda are definitely up there.

I don't agree with Morimoto or Yuuji. While they are statistically the most successful competitors, neither have that much raw power nor are they known for being the fastest competitors. Both have struggled on and failed the Wall Lifting obstacles and they've never consistently put down the fastest times in the same way guys like Kongu did. Obvs their success is due to their immense, unmatched ability otherwise, but that's kind of why I mentioned not Sasuke-specific but all-round athleticism because the answer to the best competitor with a set of skills suited to Sasuke specifically is obvious as you just go by the results.

I guess my point is that in a discipline which utilises every possible skill like decathlon or crossfit, guys like Yoshiyuki or Kongu would've done much better than Morimoto or Yuuji due to their advantage in terms of speed and raw power, but not at the expense of their ability to crush the upper body intensive stuff. Yusuke and particularly Yuuji excel in the latter but have never been outstandingly strong in the former skills.

[Ninja Relaxer]

I think one of the best criteria for this question is the Wall Lift, since it's a raw strength obstacle. IMO, the best "all-around" competitor has to do well on this as well as the other obstacles to be a great all-arounder. And Takeda clearly meets that criterion: he always lifted the walls clear over his head or flung them up like they were nothing. Same with Nagano. Shingo too, when he wasn't racing against the clock, could make the Wall Lift look easy (with a few embarrassing exceptions, of course -- but that's just Shingo being Shingo).

Yuuji and Morimoto, on the other hand, always struggled with the Wall Lift (Morimoto most infamously in 29 & 30). They did everything else really well, but they obviously had less raw strength than the All Stars. 

[subtleagent]

Keep in mind Kong is a bigger build, so the Wall Lift isn't that much of a problem for him compared to smaller competitors like Yuuji, Morimoto and especially Ryo. Then again, Shingo was never really that good at the Wall Lift despite being one of the bigger guys (especially having to squeeze under it in 2 and 12, failing it in 13, and barely beating it in 23 due to the gap), he'd really just throw the walls as high as he could and hope to hell he was fast enough not to get snagged by them.

Kong was definitely more versatile in terms of what he could do, the only real thing one can fault him on is consistency. He'd have some strong performances, but then he'd have some weaker ones like in 27 (where he took 3 tries on the HPA and 4 on the wall only to fail the Spin Bridge with less than 30 seconds left, which was just a testament to how ridiculously lenient 27's time limit in Stage 1 was) and 34 (where he seemed to gas out on the Reverse Conveyor. So while I agree he definitely he was one of the best and had a lot going for him, his spotty consistency is the one thing that makes me unsure.

I'm tempted to put Lee En-Chih in the fray. Stamina generally didn't seem to be a problem for him, and he also made Stage 3 at 39 in 30 and he was the oldest to beat 29's Backstream IIRC (which is the only stamina related fail I can think of for him, but given 29's Backstream was ridiculous I can forgive it). He's not the fastest guy, but he's shown he can get the lead out if he needs to (except for 21 where he for whatever reason spent 11 seconds on the top of the Salmon Ladder that he could have used to beat the Wall Lift) despite some close calls and in terms of body control he didn't seem to have much issue despite his height (whereas more lanky guys seem to struggle on Stage 3 and he only really ever struggled on the Cliffhanger). I honestly think he might've beaten the UCH in 27 had he not had that freak fail on the Step Slider.

[dakohosu]

Yeah you're right about Kong. It's up for debate as to whether one would call him consistent. He definitely went through some rough patches like 19-22, but I think what really put him in good stead imo was how he was one of the very few competitors who came back from a decline stronger than ever before and actually kept up that level of performance for a good few tournaments, having given his best-ever run in 23 and again in 24. And given the increase in difficulty we saw for RISING, him making Stage 3 again in his late 30s showed that he still had the ability to adapt and get stronger at an age where most of the All-Stars experienced a sharp decline like Yamada, Nagano, Shingo, Takeda etc. You are right though. While he's managed to make Stage 3 throughout completely different eras of the show spanning 15 years, he's had equal troubles with Stage 1 in each of those eras, so whether he's consistent or not I suppose depends on how you view consistency.

Lee En-Chih was always a dark horse imo, given that he went the furthest two tournaments in a row in arguably the toughest era of the show in terms of Stages 1 and 2. Speaking of that era, I suppose a good contendor for all-round athleticism would've been Yoshiyuki Okuyama. Had mad consistency, holding the record for the most Stage 3 attempts where at least one of those attempts resulted in a clear, had no signs of slowing down despite being well into his 40s, and had decent raw power (as seen from him beasting the Wall Lifting in 26) as well as speed.

I suppose this discussion just makes me think that Shin-Sasuke was probably the best course in terms of all-round ability hence all of the above I've mentioned proliferated during that era. Nowadays I just feel like the course is far too Cliffhanger-Vertical Limit-finger tippy centric. Stages 1 and 2 have been static for so many years but it's always Stage 3 that gets buffed unnecessarily; it's why pretty much the only people who do well are the <5'5 rock climbers who have built Crazy Cliffhangers in their backyard. It's getting kinda boring, alas that's a conversation for another day and/or thread.

[azn]

If given the time necessary for him to train some more, I think Kane would be in this too. He had power when doing the wall lift with the exception of SK1, Only once did he clear the first stage in single digits, again in SK1, and despite his early struggles, his SK8 third stage clear showed that he can deal w/ the third stage threats. Of course it's a shame we only got to see that version of Kane once but even still he was very well rounded.

[wrestlingfan55]

Nagano in his prime had it all, really. His main disadvantage was/is his height, which makes it tough on certain obstacles. Outside of that.

Koji Hashimoto, Koji Yamada, Drew and Bunpei are right up there as far as well-roundedness.

[Dazed (Wiin)]

me

[m4tt3r0x]

Kouji Hashimoto had he just been more dedicated. Otherwise I think Nagano.

We'll see how Yoshiyuki Yamamoto holds up now though.

Takeda's always been my favorite, but he just never had the upper body stamina.

[dakohosu]

Jul 25, 2021 15:09:46 GMT -5 m4tt3r0x said:

Kouji Hashimoto had he just been more dedicated. Otherwise I think Nagano.

We'll see how Yoshiyuki Yamamoto holds up now though.

Takeda's always been my favorite, but he just never had the upper body stamina.

Nagano in his prime was definitely the most all-rounded in terms of champions. His upper body strength is unquestionable given his 5 Stage 3 clears, but what really cemented him as one of the ultimate jack of all trades was his fluidity and flair when it came to Stages 1 and 2 as well. The guy just seemed to be taking the course so leisurely yet always putting down the fastest times and almost never making any mistakes (obvs this changed from 24 onwards but yeah....). Despite being on the smaller side he also had incredible raw power as well, lifting the 50kg walls like they were feathers.

Yuuji and Yusuke I'd say probably had better upper body strength as they cleared harder Stage 3s, but both lacked the raw power that Nagano had. Yuuji was never the most consistent competitor either; even in his prime a Final Stage attempt would often be followed by a mishap on the earlier stages.


Yusuke's consistency is no doubt on par with Nagano's and he's definitely more ahead of the rest of the field than Nagano was (given that all of Yusuke's Final Stage attempts have seen him as the only person attempting the stage), but I defo feel like a part of his success is down to just how aggressively he trains on exact obstacle replicas. He is unquestionably a Stage 3 monster but I don't think his stamina or athleticism is as strong as his results would suggest. Hence why I'd say Nagano still had much better natural all-round ability which allowed him to just fly through the course without building an entire course in his backyard; sure the course was easier back then but still.

Akiyama unquestionably comes last in terms of all-round prowess out of all the champions. Beyond his degenerative eye condition which obviously accounted for a fair few of his fails, I'd say the only qualities he had on his side were upper body strength and in some cases agility. His stamina really took a hit after his Kanzen and his lower body strength was really poor as well. And his lack of consistency doesn't even need to be discussed....

Still, had Kongu Kanzened in 24 which he was definitely on track to achieve had the rope not been tangled up I would've still put him ahead of Nagano in terms of the most all-rounded champion, mainly due to his better strength and speed, as well as his age resilience as well (even up to the age of 40 he showed no signs of declining, whereas Nagano at 40 was almost a foregone conclusion).

[m4tt3r0x]

Even though Nagano was like 5'3", his explosive power and natural grace on the course almost always carried him through the first two stages. Sasuke 19 was a good showcase of this, up until the Flying Chute of course. Unfortunately, yeah, starting at Sasuke 24 he began to show signs of regression.