Strongest/most successful non-champion

[tns8597]

Who would you say is the strongest/most successful competitor who never achieved Kanzenseiha?

[Kane-Not-Kosugi]

Strongest who's never achieved Kanzen? Strength-wise, Ryo. Skill-wise, Takeda or Tada.

The most successful, however, was arguably either Shingo or Takeda. I'd likely say Shingo considering he made 2 final stages and of course was a top competitor in his era.

[tns8597]

Interesting choices.

Personally, I'd have to go with Kong. The guy just had this unmatched combination of speed, stamina, upper-body strength, and power, that you could argue no other competitor, and certainly no other non-champion had. Sure, he 'only' had 8 Stage 3 appearances vs Shingo's 11 and Takeda's 13, but you could argue his tenure was much more successful and consistent across his entire career. Shingo made the Final Stage in an arguably very easy era of the show, and his streak of peak levels of success was quite short as he started declining after Sasuke 7 barely into his mid-20s leading to his infamous case of doing worse on every subsequent Stage 3 attempt (not sure how 'successful' that is). Takeda had unmatched levels of consistency and had a longer tenure of success than Shingo (as he made Stage 3 consistently in Shin-Sasuke) but never had the stamina to defeat Stage 3 where other far less experienced competitors edged ahead of him tournament after tournament.

Kong by comparison was consistently one of the strongest competitors across 3-4 different eras spanning 15 years, which Shingo never managed, and unlike Takeda he reached the Final Stage and probably would've achieved Kanzenseiha had it not been for the safety rope kerfuffle (which no other competitor could say about themselves, maybe bar Kane r/e the rain when he attempted the Final), which I admit was a major factor determining my decision. He was far more age-resilient leading to greater success over a longer period of time, and had some of the fastest and most powerful runs we've ever seen (think Sasuke 24) which I'd argue neither All-Star has repeated. His decline was also nowhere near as steep, and came much much later in his career and at a later age, at which point he was still capable of making Stage 3 1-2 more times I'd argue.

Tada I think we'd have to see more of to gauge his overall success as he's only risen to prominence in the last 2 years, and Ryo's streak of success was far too short imo. The only other multiple finalist who didn't achieve Kanzen is Omori, and there's several arguments as to why I wouldn't pick him....

[subtleagent]

Okuyama comes to mind in terms of consistency. He would've cleared in SASUKE 20 had the Stick Slider not faulted and screwed him over. Aside from two Warped Wall fails, he'd often clear the first two stages quietly and he made the Final once. I feel like had he made it there in 23 he might've been able to train up for a Kanzen in 24. He definitely had a shot in his older age.

[tns8597]

Mar 24, 2021 21:25:05 GMT -5 subtleagent said:

Okuyama comes to mind in terms of consistency. He would've cleared in SASUKE 20 had the Stick Slider not faulted and screwed him over. Aside from two Warped Wall fails, he'd often clear the first two stages quietly and he made the Final once. I feel like had he made it there in 23 he might've been able to train up for a Kanzen in 24. He definitely had a shot in his older age.

True; I mean the guy has by far the highest streak of Stage 3 attempts which include a clear. IIRC no non-champion's held this streak for more than 3 tournaments. He also got invited to the US to fun-run the ANW2 qualifying course alongside Yuuji and Nagano, which implied that he was considered the strongest competitor bar those two; though I'd argue he was stronger than Nagano by that point, who'd failed Stage 1 in three consecutive tournaments at that point, and he was more consistent than Yuuji.

I still think Kong edges him (though admittedly not by much) purely due to longevity and being a better all-round competitor skill-wise. Okuyama was never the fastest nor the most powerful competitor.

[wrestlingfan55]

Difficult to choose between Drew, Kong, Bunpei and Yamada. All had a decent shot of competing the course in their primes.

There was also Hashimoto, who probably retired too early. He may have missed out on his prime years. Same with Kane Kosugi, who retired at his peak.

[tns8597]

I'd say neither Yamada or Bunpei had a long enough streak of success (in my opinion at least); Yamada's prime was only for the first 5-6 years of Sasuke, and even then he mostly went out on Stage 2. Bunpei had a lot of Kanzen potential but his peak only lasted 5 tournaments and after that it was downhill due to Shin-Sasuke and injuries; I feel like the effects of age on Bunpei were basically negligible and then suddenly hit him like a train once he hit 40.

With Drew it depends how you see it; if you consider his ANW performances as well as Sasuke then he has like 10 Stage 3 appearances and one clear, but he also doesn't count because he achieved Total Victory. If we're talking Sasuke alone then I'd say he was always seen as on par with Tomohiro who I'd never consider for the aforementioned distinction; sure he was way faster on Stages 1 and 2, but he never reached the Final Stage and his Vertical Limit attempts didn't really provide a whole lot of hope. He could've done it in 37-38 or later tournaments, but we all know why that's not going to happen...

[sasukefinnja]

Kong, Takeda and Okuyama are my choices.

[gokuisgod420]

Drew probably he probably would have kanzened in 36 if it wasn’t for backstream dq

[tns8597]

Mar 26, 2021 15:19:47 GMT -5 gokuisgod420 said:

Drew probably he probably would have kanzened in 36 if it wasn’t for backstream dq

I wouldn't be so sure about that: his Vertical Limit attempt in 35 would suggest otherwise, and if Ryo failed the obstacle then I don't think Drew would've necessarily fared a whole lot better.

Also if Drew were to make the Final, I'd definitely doubt his speed on the Spider Climb as he's a fair bit bigger than Morimoto or Tada.

[Kane-Not-Kosugi]

Mar 26, 2021 16:20:08 GMT -5 tns8597 said:

Mar 26, 2021 15:19:47 GMT -5 gokuisgod420 said:

Drew probably he probably would have kanzened in 36 if it wasn’t for backstream dq

I wouldn't be so sure about that: his Vertical Limit attempt in 35 would suggest otherwise, and if Ryo failed the obstacle then I don't think Drew would've necessarily fared a whole lot better.

Also if Drew were to make the Final, I'd definitely doubt his speed on the Spider Climb as he's a fair bit bigger than Morimoto or Tada.

Idk how much you followed his training posts when he was...not in jail, but the man was ready for Stage 3. He practiced for ANW primarily, yes, especially rope climbs. But in 2019 he had like 3 or 4 posts dedicated to entire VLK training sessions. It got to the point where he was hopping VLK ledges up and down, Devil Steps style. The captions were literally "Vertical Limit is my NEMESIS!" and then was like 4 videos per post of him doing all type of training on it. Of course, you never know what would happen in the actual tournament, but he definitely put more work into it after 35.

36 might've been his best shot at a kanzen in SASUKE, especially since the Dimension would come in the following tournaments. His rope climbing is solid and I reckon speed on the Spider Climb wouldn't be a real concern. The big one in his way would be the Salmon Ladder; an obstacle he went on record multiple times to say he's never felt completely comfortable on.

Ultimately his overall endurance and efficiency improved between 35 and 36 and he just made a fatal error. I hate how much I remember about him and his athletic past...goes to show how much of a fan I was before he was convicted.

[tns8597]

Kane-Not-Kosugi fair enough. I didn’t know that, especially as his Instagram got deleted for obvious reasons. I always figured the Salmon Ladder portion wouldn’t be any problem for him given that his attempt on it in 36 (Stage 2) was by far the fastest of any competitor. Most strong competitors like Keitaro and Morimoto can do the obstacle explosively fast but go at a moderate pace in competition to avoid any silly mistakes, whereas Drew was confident in just going as fast as he could which says a lot about his technique/low propensity to making mistakes which would position him well on the Final Stage where a single poor transition could be the difference between success and failure. His Rope Climb is no question fast enough given that the ANW11 final he beat was just one long rope. He always seemed to go kinda slowly on the Spider Walk though which I figured was attributed to his size.

And r/e the whole situation, don’t feel bad; most of us are in the same position as you. The evening I found out about the whole thing I went to bed feeling really weird, as though my entire perspective on the sport had changed, especially given how synonymous Drew was with ANW as a whole following his victory.

[subtleagent]

Mar 26, 2021 15:19:47 GMT -5 gokuisgod420 said:

Drew probably he probably would have kanzened in 36 if it wasn’t for backstream dq

Doubt it considering his Vertical Limit attempt in 35 was pretty rubbish. He didn't even mess up the transition like Kawaguchi did, he gassed out. I'd say he'd have gotten maybe to the second ledge, but no further than that.