BigT
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Post by BigT on Aug 22, 2020 17:25:45 GMT -5
I want to discuss the 3rd stage. More precisely - the role of cliffhanger. It is no secret that since the introduction in Sasuke 4, cliffhanger has been a central part of the 3rd stage. But I feel that the 3rd stage has become too cliffhanger-centric.
Looking at 3rd stage from previous eras – in Sasuke 4 there is an easy first part and a difficult cliffhanger and pipe slider. Then from 5-17 the 3rd stage was possibly the most balanced ever. There was a great strength drainer in the form of rumbling dice/arm rings. It was followed by body prop – in my opinion one of the most difficult obstacles ever that very few people mastered. Then there was arm bike/globe grasper/curtain cling that many struggled with. Even getting to the cliffhanger was a huge achievement. After clearing the cliffhanger itself (about 50/50 chance), there is pipe slider with the infamous jump and in later tournaments the jumping bars and ladder combo followed by devil’s swing that was only made easy by Bunpei. What I’m trying to say is – a competitor could fail almost anywhere and while you recognized cliffhanger as an important obstacle, it perfectly worked together other obstacles, making a balanced stage. You can’t describe this 3rd stage by mentioning just cliffhanger.
Then comes the Shin-Sasuke and the trend begins. The cliffhanger is beaten only after 4 unsuccessful attempts and 3 tournaments. I think the course lacks an early body-prop like obstacle that would make it challenging to even reach cliffhanger. As a result almost everyone reaches cliffhanger and it just build this reputation as a make-or-break moment. We start to forget the beginning of the course. The 3 obstacle combo is deadly but the downgrade in difficulty of final obstacle somewhat disappointed me. There was not as much suspense as with pipe slider.
The big renewal. I think they went a bit overboard with this cliffhanger but I can praise them for making the first 3 obstacles a lot harder than what we had seen before. I think this is a somewhat balanced beginning of the course. It is a shame we never saw last obstacles in action (not sure about bungee rope climb) but flying bar would’ve been nerve-racking. Then comes 27. What a joke. The stage is basically Nothing -> Cliffhanger -> Nothing and Chain See-Saw -> Easy Bar Glider (the jump in the middle was good but the stopper at the end just ruins it).
The Sasuke Rising era. I am a getting bit tired from writing and don’t want you to have an even bigger wall of text incoming, so I’ll let the numbers speak for themselves. From Sasuke 28-31 stage 3 was attempted 24 times. The cliffhanger was attempted...24 times. So not a single competitor failed first two or three obstacles (number of obstacles has been reduced from 8 to 6 throughout years). I get that they were strength drainers and were effective against Yuuji in 28 and Morimoto in 29 but I feel like there should be failable obstacles, too. There were only 6 clears. 3 competitors failed the vertical limit and 3 cleared, which in my opinions is a reasonable rate for vertical limit but the pipe slider was too easy. I think Kanno and Asa perfectly describe how this stage 3 was almost entirely about cliffhanger.
From 32-36 stage 3 was attempted 37 times and the cliffhanger 23 times. Mainly due to flying bar, though weather played a part in 32 and the wire in 33, so the problem of the lack of challenging early obstacles remained. So for experienced competitors we basically see a start stage 3 -> get to cliffhanger -> make-or-break -> vertical limit (Most likely a fail if you’re not Morimoto Yusuke) -> relatively easy pipe slider (You can argument that Yuuji failed it but that was a freak accident. As Rene proved, the jump is a joke compared to what it used to be. I believe the pipe slider is the best last obstacle but at least make the jump exciting again).
Now the cliffhanger has been made even more difficult. I don’t even know what to do. I get that nowadays people train for the course way more than in the past so maybe an overpowered cliffhanger is the only way to stop them. Or maybe they just make the other obstacles look easy? People like Yuuji, Ryo and Morimoto are monsters when it comes to cliffhanger but on the other hand cliffhanger has so far been the sole reason top competitors like Sato Jun (failed cliffhanger in 5 out of last 6 tournaments), Hioki, Kanno and Asa have had fantastic runs cut short. Imagine Takeda or Okuyama failing the same obstacle every single time. Wouldn’t you get bored?
Well, rant over. What are your thoughts?
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tns8597
Jordan Jovtchev
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Post by tns8597 on Aug 22, 2020 18:14:10 GMT -5
I agree with this largely.
I think a good Stage 3 is defined as one where the obstacles are appropriately hard throughout the stage such that anyone could fail anywhere; I agree this is mostly applicable to the Sasuke 9-17 stage where the Body Prop and Lamp Grasper/Curtain Cling meant that reaching the Cliffhanger was never guaranteed, while the Cliffhanger was hard but not so OP that we got endless fails on the obstacle.
I think the problem you're describing is because the Cliffhanger is the most iconic Stage 3 obstacle, therefore whenever there's a renewal and warranted difficulty increase, they always try and overcompensate through CH modifications because they know it'll cause the most impact/most fails. But I think recently they've gone overboard. The first half of the RISING Stage 3 was pathetically easy and was kept largely the same even after no one failed any of the obstacles. Sasuke 32-36 was better with the Flying Bar, Planet Bridge and Sidewinder but the UCCH was still an anomalously hard obstacle. To add to that, if someone did make it past the UCCH, they would almost always fail the Vertical Limit because their fingers would just be exhausted. I honestly got bored from 35-36 seeing competitors either fail the UCCH or VL.
Now the Cliffhanger Dimension is unwarranted. I get increasing the difficulty after a Kanzen, but 36 saw a okay-ish clear rate on the UCCH (4/8 I think it was) for the first time in ages, so they just think 'okay let's make the Cliffhanger even more OP than before'. Even without the ledges moving, it still took out more than half of the competitors in 37.
I just hope in future competitions they put a bit more effort into the preceding obstacles before the Cliffhanger, rather than basically guaranteeing that everyone will reach the obstacle just so that 'make-or-break' moment is encountered more frequently.
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3rd stage
Aug 23, 2020 6:17:12 GMT -5
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Post by ChiBiJKT48 on Aug 23, 2020 6:17:12 GMT -5
Agree, however, with low budget given to them, they will have hard time thinking of new original obstacle for Third Stage *I mean, from SASUKE 28-37, we only get two new original obstacles in form of Drum Hopper and Vertical Limit (please correct me if I'm wrong, my mind kinda blurry for post-Monster9 tournaments) (we could said that Iron Paddler is modification of Arm Bike, and Planet Bridge is modification of Body Prop)*, so they will just prefer to made Cliffhanger harder at this rate.
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BigT
Wakky
Posts: 134
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Post by BigT on Aug 23, 2020 7:56:57 GMT -5
It just boggles my mind that they use the limited budget to create another moving ledge for cliffhanger. Planet bridge also probably costs a lot of money but effectiveness is doubtful. I wonder whether a static obstacle would work and save them some money (for stage 2 revamp, for example).
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tns8597
Jordan Jovtchev
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Post by tns8597 on Aug 23, 2020 10:53:32 GMT -5
I don’t really think budget is an excuse given that they could just create more difficult versions of existing obstacles, like they always seem to do with the Cliffhanger. They probably wouldn’t be anywhere near as expensive as the CHD as well with its two moving ledges.
Not that this would ever happen, but a good example would be to reintroduce the Roulette Cylinder and Doorknob Grasper, and move the flying bar to the final obstacle with more cradles/transitions. Maybe replace the Planet Bridge with a buffed up Drum Hopper which is either higher or has smaller or fewer drums.
Not saying that’s exactly how it should be, but that’s an example of how the stage comprises of appropriately hard obstacles throughout the course, where anyone could fail at any point. Especially the Flying Bar as the final obstacle I think is a great option because you want the final part of the stage to have a lot of suspense, which you just don’t get with the Pipe Slider because the jump is so easy. Whereas with the flying bar, I reiterate, you know that regardless of how hard the obstacles before it were, you know the competitor could still fail at any point, which creates the best sense of excitement for such a pertinent stage.
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3rd stage
Aug 23, 2020 12:34:44 GMT -5
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Post by ChiBiJKT48 on Aug 23, 2020 12:34:44 GMT -5
Which is why I always wanted Body Prop to return, but, for some odd reason, Mr. Inui didn't want that to happen.
The other is we could extend the Third Stage again with using Jumping Bars and adding some original obstacles, however, as I typed earlier, budget hold them.
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azn
Ishikawa Terukazu
"There's a time and place for everything... BUT NOT NOW!!!" - Prof. Oak
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3rd stage
Aug 23, 2020 13:06:26 GMT -5
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Post by azn on Aug 23, 2020 13:06:26 GMT -5
Couldn't they just replace planet bridge with the body prop, I feel Planet Bridge is just a rip-off of it and a really bad one (sry Hioki) The Cliffhanger used in ANW I feel is slightly better,just make the ledges Sasuke length, but perhaps that big of an obstacle would be way beyond the budget.
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tns8597
Jordan Jovtchev
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3rd stage
Aug 23, 2020 15:42:10 GMT -5
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Post by tns8597 on Aug 23, 2020 15:42:10 GMT -5
Am I right in thinking that the Planet Bridge is harder than the Body Prop? Because they’re the same sort of movement, but the former’s footholds move and the handholds are also really awkwardly shaped compared to the latter, so surely the Body Prop would be even easier; well, not easier, but less tough I imagine.
I am surprised that it didn’t have the same impact as the body prop, which seemed to have this penchant for taking out several competitors, even those who had cleared it before like Takeda and Shingo. I guess competitors are just stronger these days. It would be worth removing though because it must be expensive to operate; a good option for the third obstacle would be the Floating Boards. That’s a brutal obstacle that was cut short in Sasuke but did it’s damage on ANW.
Speaking of ANW, you’re right. I’m not a huge ANW fan but I do love how they manage to revamp each stage year on year with some creative obstacles; particularly their Stages 2 and 3 are BRUTAL compared to Sasuke’s as a result, because competitors can’t possibly train for how dynamic the course changes are. But fundamentally Sasuke’s budget is nowhere near as big; it’s a shame though because I do think that the course changes they do make (such as the UCCH to CHD) just aren’t justified whereas necessary changes such as an outdated Stage 2 and first half of Stage 3 are just ignored....
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3rd stage
Aug 23, 2020 18:34:43 GMT -5
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Post by PizzaKing57 on Aug 23, 2020 18:34:43 GMT -5
For those of you who are saying that the Planet Bridge should be replaced with the Body Prop, I unfortunately have to disagree with you.
The reasons for my opinion is because the Planet Bridge is a more extraordinary and mechanical obstacle, whereas the original Body Prop is just too boring and old, and it was last featured about thirteen years ago.
At least the revamped Planet Bridge has an excellent name and is more special with large balls as handholds instead of the usual glass wall, which would make it boring.
However, the main reason as to why I am more confident with the Planet Bridge is because at least only one has person has failed on this, meaning I have no fear of anybody else failing the obstacle and if the Body Prop came back instead, then my emotions would be different as anybody could fail on there at anytime, as Shingo surprisingly failed it twice as well as Bunpei from out of nowhere.
Lastly, I also believe that the spheres are more comfortable for the players to grasp onto, then the glass wall.
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BigT
Wakky
Posts: 134
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Post by BigT on Aug 24, 2020 0:48:04 GMT -5
That is the exact reason some of us would prefer body prop - the uncertainty of whether a competitor will fail it or not. I think it's the opposite of boring.
I also think spheres are easier to grasp onto, so the ledge moving is not that much of a problem.
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tns8597
Jordan Jovtchev
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Post by tns8597 on Aug 24, 2020 6:27:34 GMT -5
Yeah I agree with bigt's comment here. As I said I would've thought the Planet Bridge is harder than the Body Prop but if it's easier then it's a bit of a joke how it's in a supposedly much harder era of the show.
ANW brought back the Body Prop and even Isaac Calidero failed it during qualifiers in the same season he achieved Total Victory; they also added the Curved Body Prop and it took out Sean McColl, so clearly it's one of those obstacles that's always going to be a pain no matter what, and that's exactly why something like that should be in Stage 3.
It would be cool to have the footholds moving though, but with the handholds the same as the original Body Prop. Either that or make it curved. Just anything to more evenly distribute the difficulty of Stage 3 and not make it so Cliffhanger/Vertical Limit focussed.
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