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Post by jfeathe on Jan 15, 2011 15:18:32 GMT -5
This really goes back to my comment about the first stage being a crap shoot. I really dislike that there are obstacles that are so uncertain. People like Nagano, Kanno, Sato, Tajima, Urushihara, Takahashi, and others should be clearing nearly every time. I say it's 75% bad course design and 25% bad luck. I agree with that, but also the fact that Stage 1 has simply become too difficult IMO. When's the last time we've even had someone clear it who hasn't been training for it? That's what I liked about the 5-17 era---it was still difficult enough to eliminate top competitors sometimes, but it was also still in the realm of possibility for people who've never trained for Sasuke to still have some chance of clearing it. In fact, I honestly think this is one of top reasons why Sasuke is going down ratings-wise in Japan---because it's the same people who keep clearing and no "average joes" can even get past the first few obstacles anymore (people want variety). Sasuke was in its peak around the first half of its competitions so far (i.e. the first dozen or so) because regular people who had some decent physical abilities still had a shot at clearing Stage 1 and occasionally Stage 2. Point blank (and I know this has been said multiple times lately by both me and other people on here), Sasuke needs to go back to an easier Stage 1. In general, every Stage 1 since Shin-Sasuke started has been ridiculously difficult to the point that you have to train almost constantly to have a shot at clearing it. IMO the easiest Stage 1 since then was by far Sasuke 25, but even that was too tough for anyone besides top names and consistent clearers to move on (as a matter of fact IIRC the farthest someone made it who we're unfamiliar with was the Soritatsu Kabe, because the people who made it to at least the Circle Slider were Nagano and STQers). I want to see Stage 1's overall difficulty dropped pretty much so that not only will the majority of the main guys clear, but also several new people. Even if like 20-25 made it past Stage 1, I'd still be very happy with more variety and excitement in Stage 2 and possibly Stage 3. There's nothing wrong with that IMO, plus ratings might also go up a decent amount. Now don't get me wrong, I've still really enjoyed the recent tournaments, I just think they could be better in ways like this. You made some great points. IMO 25's first stage would have been absolutely perfect to put in Sasuke 18. It would have been the perfect difficulty increase while still keeping a ton of familiarity. I agree with your point that people HAVE to train specifically for Sasuke to have a chance at the first stage. We'll never see anyone like TAS, that French Foreign Legion bodyguard, or the Bruce Lee guy clear again. Those were the clears that are the most fun in my eye since they were the "regular everyday people". There really isn't as much excitment watching Sasuke anymore because it truly is the SAME people clearing over and over and over.
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Post by UnrealCanine on Jan 15, 2011 16:27:35 GMT -5
I'd only support an easier stage 1 if the lenght was reduced
80-100 seconds rather then 110-130
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Post by scnoi1217 on Jan 15, 2011 20:08:00 GMT -5
I agree the First Stage should be made easier but not by much. Imo, it should always be around SASUKE 23's difficulty and honestly that's what I think they'll do if there is a SASUKE 27. They'll probably get rid of the Hazard Swing, make the angle on the Rolling Escargot less steep (so it also causes it to swing slower) and make the Jumping Spider 24's height. Making the RE and JS easier, alone will help out A LOT with getting some of the better competitors and comedians deeper into the course. Also, making the time limit a lot more lenient will help. Yes, some people like Levi or Kongu will clear with 30 seconds left but that's a part of what makes a run like that exciting: the speed.
Do all those and you will have a tournament like SASUKE 23. Also, look what happened with the results: just about everyone did better that what they normally would do. Comedians like the Monkey and Yagi getting to the Jumping Spider, older competitors like Yamada and Wakky getting to the Slider Jump, etc. SASUKE 23 had a feel to it that no other Shin-SASUKE tournament had, which was a feeling that ANYONE can make it.
Also, anyone saying that the Second Stage should be made HARDER is insane. More Stage 1 clears = many more DSL deaths. Elite competitors such as Takeda and the Muscle Musical guys have failed there. The average joe or comedian/celebrity will do much worse. If they happen to clear that, then the UB, Balance Tank, and Metal Spin all will do considerable damage. Not to mention the time will kill most people who haven't trained for it. Making it harder will essentially move SASUKE 26's First Stage into the Second Stage and you'll end up with similar numbers to SASUKE 26 in Stage 3. Keep it the same. More Stage 2 clears will mean more Stage 3 attempts, and more chances for the elite to have a shot at the UCH.
So make Stage 1 = to 23's difficulty, leave everything else the same, and at least good results will follow.
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Post by yamfriend on Jan 15, 2011 21:49:06 GMT -5
I agree the First Stage should be made easier but not by much. Imo, it should always be around SASUKE 23's difficulty and honestly that's what I think they'll do if there is a SASUKE 27. They'll probably get rid of the Hazard Swing, make the angle on the Rolling Escargot less steep (so it also causes it to swing slower) and make the Jumping Spider 24's height. Making the RE and JS easier, alone will help out A LOT with getting some of the better competitors and comedians deeper into the course. Also, making the time limit a lot more lenient will help. Yes, some people like Levi or Kongu will clear with 30 seconds left but that's a part of what makes a run like that exciting: the speed. Do all those and you will have a tournament like SASUKE 23. Also, look what happened with the results: just about everyone did better that what they normally would do. Comedians like the Monkey and Yagi getting to the Jumping Spider, older competitors like Yamada and Wakky getting to the Slider Jump, etc. SASUKE 23 had a feel to it that no other Shin-SASUKE tournament had, which was a feeling that ANYONE can make it. Also, anyone saying that the Second Stage should be made HARDER is insane. More Stage 1 clears = many more DSL deaths. Elite competitors such as Takeda and the Muscle Musical guys have failed there. The average joe or comedian/celebrity will do much worse. If they happen to clear that, then the UB, Balance Tank, and Metal Spin all will do considerable damage. Not to mention the time will kill most people who haven't trained for it. Making it harder will essentially move SASUKE 26's First Stage into the Second Stage and you'll end up with similar numbers to SASUKE 26 in Stage 3. Keep it the same. More Stage 2 clears will mean more Stage 3 attempts, and more chances for the elite to have a shot at the UCH. So make Stage 1 = to 23's difficulty, leave everything else the same, and at least good results will follow. Pretty much everything you said with Stage 1 was true. Sasuke 23 was IMO the best Shin-Sasuke tournament and one of the best tournaments ever. The success rate was very good (i.e. not too high or too low) with each stage with both clears and individual results. And while the difficulty was still pretty high, it was appropriate enough so that people had adapted enough to the course that the results were how they were. Sasuke 26 on the other hand was such a drastic step up from 25 for Stage 1 that results were lower than usual. If changes like these are made to Stage 1 from one tournament to the next so much that top contenders can't make it farther in the competition (i.e. like Sasuke 19 and 20), it's too much at once. Difficulty should gradually increase instead, which is what I would've much rather seen happen in Stage 1 from 25 to 26; if anything, I would've put the difficulty back down to as low as Sasuke 17 level. That would be much easier than 18-26's Stage 1, but I don't see a problem with that. In fact, I'd really like to see about 15-20 people in Stage 2 for most tournaments. Additionally, I agree with the idea of not making Stage 2 any harder than it already is (see scnoi's post, I don't feel like restating everything me said ). But once again though, if anything Stage 2 should IMO go back to 23/24 difficulty. I wouldn't care that much either way, but I want people who made it to Stage 3 in the past making it there once again. Either way, we'd probably still see about 5-10 people making it to Stage 3 most of the time anyway. Stage 3, keep it how it is. Of anything, this is what I think has really defined the new era. As much as I'd wish it was easy enough that Takeda could finally reach the Final Stage , the current Stage 3 should be kept similar to how it is now and only have minor changes throughout the remainder of this era. Though we have no idea about the Final Stage yet, it should be difficult and have a very strict time limit. Something ideally like 5-17's Final Stage, but with something new. Summary: Stage 1: difficulty = late "2nd" era/early "Shin" era Stage 2: difficulty = late "Shin" era/current "Kanzen Renewal" era Stage 3: difficulty = current "Kanzen Renewal" era Final Stage: difficulty = "2nd" era Off topic: I really need to make shorter posts.
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Post by Badalight on Jan 16, 2011 0:22:02 GMT -5
I've said it before, I wouldn't mind Sasuke 25's first stage.
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Post by bidenichhaun on Jan 16, 2011 1:03:31 GMT -5
I agree the First Stage should be made easier but not by much. Imo, it should always be around SASUKE 23's difficulty and honestly that's what I think they'll do if there is a SASUKE 27. They'll probably get rid of the Hazard Swing, make the angle on the Rolling Escargot less steep (so it also causes it to swing slower) and make the Jumping Spider 24's height. Making the RE and JS easier, alone will help out A LOT with getting some of the better competitors and comedians deeper into the course. Also, making the time limit a lot more lenient will help. Yes, some people like Levi or Kongu will clear with 30 seconds left but that's a part of what makes a run like that exciting: the speed. Do all those and you will have a tournament like SASUKE 23. Also, look what happened with the results: just about everyone did better that what they normally would do. Comedians like the Monkey and Yagi getting to the Jumping Spider, older competitors like Yamada and Wakky getting to the Slider Jump, etc. SASUKE 23 had a feel to it that no other Shin-SASUKE tournament had, which was a feeling that ANYONE can make it. Also, anyone saying that the Second Stage should be made HARDER is insane. More Stage 1 clears = many more DSL deaths. Elite competitors such as Takeda and the Muscle Musical guys have failed there. The average joe or comedian/celebrity will do much worse. If they happen to clear that, then the UB, Balance Tank, and Metal Spin all will do considerable damage. Not to mention the time will kill most people who haven't trained for it. Making it harder will essentially move SASUKE 26's First Stage into the Second Stage and you'll end up with similar numbers to SASUKE 26 in Stage 3. Keep it the same. More Stage 2 clears will mean more Stage 3 attempts, and more chances for the elite to have a shot at the UCH. So make Stage 1 = to 23's difficulty, leave everything else the same, and at least good results will follow. Pretty much everything you said with Stage 1 was true. Sasuke 23 was IMO the best Shin-Sasuke tournament and one of the best tournaments ever. The success rate was very good (i.e. not too high or too low) with each stage with both clears and individual results. And while the difficulty was still pretty high, it was appropriate enough so that people had adapted enough to the course that the results were how they were. Sasuke 26 on the other hand was such a drastic step up from 25 for Stage 1 that results were lower than usual. If changes like these are made to Stage 1 from one tournament to the next so much that top contenders can't make it farther in the competition (i.e. like Sasuke 19 and 20), it's too much at once. Difficulty should gradually increase instead, which is what I would've much rather seen happen in Stage 1 from 25 to 26; if anything, I would've put the difficulty back down to as low as Sasuke 17 level. That would be much easier than 18-26's Stage 1, but I don't see a problem with that. In fact, I'd really like to see about 15-20 people in Stage 2 for most tournaments. Additionally, I agree with the idea of not making Stage 2 any harder than it already is (see scnoi's post, I don't feel like restating everything me said ). But once again though, if anything Stage 2 should IMO go back to 23/24 difficulty. I wouldn't care that much either way, but I want people who made it to Stage 3 in the past making it there once again. Either way, we'd probably still see about 5-10 people making it to Stage 3 most of the time anyway. Stage 3, keep it how it is. Of anything, this is what I think has really defined the new era. As much as I'd wish it was easy enough that Takeda could finally reach the Final Stage , the current Stage 3 should be kept similar to how it is now and only have minor changes throughout the remainder of this era. Though we have no idea about the Final Stage yet, it should be difficult and have a very strict time limit. Something ideally like 5-17's Final Stage, but with something new. Summary: Stage 1: difficulty = late "2nd" era/early "Shin" era Stage 2: difficulty = late "Shin" era/current "Kanzen Renewal" era Stage 3: difficulty = current "Kanzen Renewal" era Final Stage: difficulty = "2nd" era Off topic: I really need to make shorter posts. i like the idea to make the 1st stage easier and i would love to see more people advancing but there is 1 problem: the length of the show seeing that in 26: 10 people clearing 1st stage although most promising participants faild i think they already got too many good regular sasuke athletes (people are improving) so i think making the course easier will result in 20-30 clears minimum sasuke 24 was nearly 6 hours long i think, and even that was way too much (dont get me wrong i love sasuke and wouldnt mind watching 12 hours straight ;p) but wich "normal" human beeing has the time to watch that on tv without pause or whatever? so when their making 1st stage easier again they would have to either: a) dont invite most of the regulars wich i dont think they would do and would suck or b) fast forward 70-80% of the stage 1 clears and 2nd stage runs (would suck too) or c) make episodes of 1 hour each or something (dont like that idea either^^) ahhhh its frustraiting -.- can sasuke be saved?
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arsenette
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Post by arsenette on Jan 16, 2011 2:34:09 GMT -5
M9 has to get out there and invite good celebrities for Sasuke to live. Period. Japanese honestly could care less wtf the obstacles are.. they like seeing their favorite celebs. If it's shorter/easier that would keep their favorite celebs in the game longer but they have to be there in order to get that far. Sasuke 26 only had one.. count it ONE named person that was new that actually showed some potential. Even despite the changes to stage one.. they need to put effort into this next Sasuke.. if there is one. They pulled this sucker out of their a$$es and they had to pick who was available.. as opposed to planning this far in advance and planning schedule around the talent.. THIS is the only way this sucker is going to survive. Changing obstacles around will not help if the people who bring the audience in to watch aren't there. That's how it works in Japan.
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Post by mikessssssss on Jan 16, 2011 6:00:24 GMT -5
I'm having massive Deja-Vu right now.
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Post by GregPuciato on Jan 16, 2011 14:37:32 GMT -5
Disagree, disagree, disagree.
(I had some comments quoted but I surpassed the character limit, haha)
Regarding stage 1 - there's a difference between difficulty and predictability. A big reason why it took so many out this time (and even 19) was because of new obstacles. We all saw them - they're not impossible. Since when are people obligated to pass a stage? Why should there be minimum or maximum clears? To me, if a tournament takes everybody out at the 1st or 2nd stage, then it did its job at being the world's most difficult obstacle course. It's the competitor's job to be up to the challenge.
Again about Nagano, he has a tough time with taller/jumping obstacles because he's super short. True, he may have lost some of his natural springiness but like Oti says - you can always get stronger. Nagano himself may think he has limits, but he's wrong. Sure, Okuyama was a world-class athlete and that is to his advantage, but it doesn't matter who you are.
A key difference between Sasuke and sports is that the former has only two (sometimes three) tournaments a year while a season of sports can consist of multiple tests a week for several months. For this reason, old age has a much more significant effect in sports.
If you can run and jump, handle the weight of your body, and are mentally strong and focused then you can do wonders in Sasuke regardless of age.
And Arsenette, you put up a good point about the show surviving. If they care about its survival, they can put in the work and do some planning, advertising, and talk to the agents and networks of more well-known figures. The Sasuke nerds - us - are the only ones that get hard-ons over the obstacles and the athleticism. M9 should be more concerned with motivating a more diverse audience to watch. Let's hope they have the funding, haha.
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Post by arsenette on Jan 16, 2011 15:55:21 GMT -5
And Arsenette, you put up a good point about the show surviving. If they care about its survival, they can put in the work and do some planning, advertising, and talk to the agents and networks of more well-known figures. The Sasuke nerds - us - are the only ones that get hard-ons over the obstacles and the athleticism. M9 should be more concerned with motivating a more diverse audience to watch. Let's hope they have the funding, haha. Very much agreed though M9 hasn't put much effort out at all the past few and burning bridges with TBS is not helping lately. I'm really worried that they refuse to put out effort and expect G4 to carry them in Japan.. which is why I'm still holding fast to my theory that they are going to sell ANW as a spin off and call it a day.
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Post by jfeathe on Jan 16, 2011 23:41:31 GMT -5
As wild as this may sound, is "Celebrity Sasuke" out of the question? 25 or 50 celebrities with 4 very easy stages seems like a no-brainer. If the Japanese are truly as captivated by the talentos and comedians as I'm thinking they are, wouldn't this go over insanely well?
Make the "START" platform huge and let the comedy fly before each run.
It has the Sasuke brand people like with all the big names of the variety shows. Doing a celebrity edition only once followed by regular Sasukes with a heavy celebrity base could work.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2011 0:06:04 GMT -5
Another thing we should note, is that although Sasuke 25 had bad ratings, M9 and TBS could've very well expected low ratings due to not really having many celebrates.
They have a "set" goal for each show, so if there's no celebrities or big names, they expect the show will have a low rating, and they plan accordingly.
If they had alot of big names, it wouldn't really mean anything, now, the goal for the tournament is MUCH higher, and that could ruin Sasuke, because people still may not tune in.
My point is just because there's a crap load of celebrities, doesn't mean we are worried free. Now the steaks are higher, and M9 and TBS expect a much MUCH higher rating.
But having a Celebrity Sasuke with a MUCH easier course would be a good idea honestly, although I can't see how they could do it.
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Post by arsenette on Jan 17, 2011 0:32:23 GMT -5
It wouldn't be Sasuke if it was all Celebrities.. that's the problem. It was a nice mix between it that was part of the appeal. When a normal person watching Sasuke saw "hey I can do this".. THAT was the appeal. That's how most of the All-Stars got in in the first place.. they saw it .. saw Joe Schmo had a chance and they applied. For the rest who watched it for the celebs they grew to watch the rest but that was never their main attention.. and as the celebs left.. they left too.. leaving the hardcore to continue to watch.
As for TBS.. they already set a goal and even when asked it seems they realized that they didn't meet it. They all wanted double digits. There's a question how high.. but so far it's clear Double digits was at the minimum. They didn't win any time slot no matter how they re-branded the show.. the fact that they were listed in Sports when usually they were listed in Variety was a clear indication that they failed... they were annihilated during the week by other variety shows. Only time will tell what this means.. but with no one from TBS inside M9 anymore.. it's anyone guess how far the bridge was burned.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2011 1:02:00 GMT -5
Is that always the appeal though.
I think having celebrities appeals to a different group than having the course be easier.
I do agree 100% with you, I just don't think that's the only factor to the slump in ratings. As in, if they make the course plenty easier (Which they should) I don't think that's the only thing that will help the show.
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Post by arsenette on Jan 17, 2011 1:09:52 GMT -5
Well the problem with ratings is that people pick apart the telecast.. but that's not what ratings are.. it shows how many WATCHED.. so the content itself wasn't "lacking".. it was that people weren't WATCHING.. that's the biggest thing with ratings.. so.. you have to look at what caused people NOT to watch... it's been steadily going down for the past few years due to the lack of real static star power... it's the casual people that spike ratings.. not the hardcore that will watch a show through thick and thin..
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lars072
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Post by lars072 on Jan 17, 2011 6:27:00 GMT -5
Arghh! You would think by now that everyone on this forum gets the fact that its ratings that dictate SASUKE and little else. IF Japanese don't care, the show will die. As ube and arsenette have said repeatedly, Japanese have lost interest over the years and the whole idea of obstacle course shows has all but died out. Obviously, M9 and TBS have dropped the ball and needed to change their ways. But perhaps it's time to let go. None of us want SASUKE to end, but perhaps we have to face facts - SASUKE has been around for 13 years and that is a long time for a show to last. I just hope that when SASUKE does end, we get a great finale!
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Post by Badalight on Jan 17, 2011 10:38:04 GMT -5
None of us want SASUKE to end, but perhaps we have to face facts - SASUKE has been around for 13 years and that is a long time for a show to last. I just hope that when SASUKE does end, we get a great finale! Giving up is rather silly. It's true that it could end soon, but don't be so negative.
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Post by lars072 on Jan 17, 2011 10:55:01 GMT -5
None of us want SASUKE to end, but perhaps we have to face facts - SASUKE has been around for 13 years and that is a long time for a show to last. I just hope that when SASUKE does end, we get a great finale! Giving up is rather silly. It's true that it could end soon, but don't be so negative. I'm being realistic and just stating facts badalight. Who's giving up? We all want SASUKE to go on and be a successful event but the chances of that happening is slim given the feeble attempts of M9and TBS to promote the show and win back Japanese viewers.
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Post by Badalight on Jan 17, 2011 12:36:36 GMT -5
Giving up is rather silly. It's true that it could end soon, but don't be so negative. I'm being realistic and just stating facts badalight. Who's giving up? We all want SASUKE to go on and be a successful event but the chances of that happening is slim given the feeble attempts of M9and TBS to promote the show and win back Japanese viewers. What you said is pretty much giving up, your constant negative outlook is giving up Even if people like Arsenette arn't very optimistic about the future of Sasuke they arn't going around acting like the sky is falling.
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Post by arsenette on Jan 17, 2011 13:49:54 GMT -5
I'm being realistic and just stating facts badalight. Who's giving up? We all want SASUKE to go on and be a successful event but the chances of that happening is slim given the feeble attempts of M9and TBS to promote the show and win back Japanese viewers. What you said is pretty much giving up, your constant negative outlook is giving up Even if people like Arsenette arn't very optimistic about the future of Sasuke they arn't going around acting like the sky is falling. But Bada.. your unrealistic optimistic point of view is actually far from reality.. the sky IS falling.. LOL Lars and I agree on that point.. if TBS/M9 doesn't change course.. I think we just saw our last Sasuke.
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