The point of being vegetarian

[Oti]

Are you a member of some religion that requires everyone to eat meat or something?

Haha!

It's just... I don't know. You present all these reasons, and you make it sound like meat is killing us all slowly, and... Yeesh. It's like religion. It really sounds like Christianity to me. It sounds like "WORSHIP OUR GOD, OUR WAY, OR YOU'RE GOING TO BURN!"

And about the bread and cheese thing... A good diet (that includes meat) is WAAAYYYY better than eating nothing but bread and cheese.

[RiderLeangle]

I'm probably throwing myself into the lions den by posting a standpoint in this topic but if you ask me I don't think it'd be a good idea going to one extreme or another, why not have balance in your diet?

I mean I eat healthy stuff and I also eat stuff like McDonalds and I'm in good shape and I'm only sick once or twice a year at most (Although even though I haven't gotten sick by it, I don't recommend any of you try training on cold metal bars in a T-Shirt when theres snow around XD).

If I credit anything to my health it'd probably be my training, That's where I get most of my skill from anyways.

So maybe you guys should consider that you should think about moderation of both in your diet? Just felt I should inject that standpoint into the conversation

[Oti]

I definitely agree with you. I'm not saying you should eat meat with every meal, or that you should blend it up and drink it, or anything. Too much can definitely be bad.

Lion's den averted!

[davidcampbell]

Well it's like with anything for the most part. You can snort coke once a month or have a few beers snd smoke on the weekends and it not going to effect you all that much. But that doesn't make it good for you.

And I'm not saying you're evil or will go to hell and burn if you eat meat either, I'm just saying less is better, and none is best.
I eat ice cream sometimes, but I don't try to argue that it's good for me. If someone told me I shouldn't eat it I'd say "yeah I know, but I like to sometimes, I'm not ready to give it up completely"
And if someone posted all the reasons why they didn't eat icecream, I wouldn't say something like "I know more healthy people that eat icecream than people that don't".
(Actually I've found a really good coconut milk based icecream substitute sweetened with organic evaporated cane juice. Still though, once in while I like some Dryers slow churned rocky road. )

Really the most healthy diet would be 100% organic raw unprocessed whole foods, with no meat, dairy, bread, and sugar. Basically just uncooked fruits, vegetables and nuts for the most part. (what gorillas eat pretty much) You'd probably never be sick a day in your life?

most likely none of us will never do that because we're too used to eating all the differen't sweet and savory foods we like, but the closer we can get the better.

[Oti]

I'm not a doctor or anything, but I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that eating quality, organic meat can't be compared to smoking or doing coke... hat's just me, though. What do I know, right?

And the other stuff just isn't true. A diet that includes meat can be good for you, and possibly even better, than one that doesn't include meat. It's all about what you just said: organic, whole, unprocessed foods. There IS good meat, believe it or not.

I think a good, balanced diet should include high quality meat and dairy. Bread is useless because it's essentially empty calories (those carbs can be gotten from veggies, anyway) and sugar can be forgotten.

As for not being sick... it may help some people, but there are always those with little or no immune systems. Becoming a vegetarian isn't a miracle cure for them. It's just not gonna happen. It's like allergies. Rarely, changing the diet works, but for the most part... no.

I also don't think foods necessarily have to be raw, but some should be.

[scopedknife]

@oti

I know it's quality, not quantity. But my training is more consistent and more specific than his to areas which I'm trying to improve, and yet he still outdoes me every time. I'm not necessarily saying that it is his diet that's doing it, but it can't hurt to give it a try, can it? ^_^
Besides, meat's beginning to annoy me, and I do prefer fruit and veg anyway.

[Oti]

Consistency and specificity are good and important, but there are other factors, such as intensity, etc.. I just really doubt it's because of his diet and I see no reason to go vegetarian because of that. It just makes no sense.

I know what you mean about meat getting annoying, though. I got tired of chicken for a little while...

[davidcampbell]

Oti, you keep saying meat is good for you, and now that dairy is good for you, but you don't say how or why. You just sound like a kid saying "nuh uh, no, you're wrong, I'm right!"

Assuming someone is on a well ballanced diet of organic raw, fruits, vegetables, nut's etc, how would meat possibly benefit this person? What disease does meat prevent?

[davidcampbell]

www.heimat-fuer-tiere.de/english/articles/med/meat_makes_you_sick.shtml

[arsenette]

I think this is one thing I hate about vegetarianism. It's not enough that they want to eat that way on their own.. it's imperative that they have to demonize carnivorous to exist. Seriously. Most vegetarians I still am friends with don't bother berating me with charts and what not. The ones that aren't my friends refuse to just live and let live. Why can't we just we just get along and just ignore having to go through the "I eat this way because what you eat is pure evil". What's interesting that most vegetarians cannot omit is that they cannot get all nutrients the body needs without having either a supplement. Quite frankly omitting anything from your diet is in the long run horrible for you. Eating too much of one this is horrible for you. Be sensible in your diet, do not load up on one type of food over the other, limit or omit junk food, exercise regularly and you can live to friggin 100 years old if you want to. Genes also play a huge rule. I've seen vegans die at the age of 30 from genetic-related diseases and conditions. I've seen carnivorous that eat nothing but fried steak and what not live until they are 100. Just frustrates me is all. I can understand if we are going out to eat obviously I won't invite a vegetarian to an all you can eat steakhouse.. I've live quite peacefully with my in-laws and relatives who are either vegan or vegetarian I wish more would follow suit.

[Oti]

Thank you, Arsenette. You've summed up my feelings more eloquently than I could.

David, this is the internet. For any page you find that says meat is bad, I could easily find one that says meat is good. There is no significant proof.

[davidcampbell]

Dec 31, 2009 2:36:18 GMT -5 arsenette said:

I think this is one thing I hate about vegetarianism. It's not enough that they want to eat that way on their own.. it's imperative that they have to demonize carnivorous to exist. Seriously. Most vegetarians I still am friends with don't bother berating me with charts and what not. The ones that aren't my friends refuse to just live and let live. Why can't we just we just get along and just ignore having to go through the "I eat this way because what you eat is pure evil". What's interesting that most vegetarians cannot omit is that they cannot get all nutrients the body needs without having either a supplement. Quite frankly omitting anything from your diet is in the long run horrible for you. Eating too much of one this is horrible for you. Be sensible in your diet, do not load up on one type of food over the other, limit or omit junk food, exercise regularly and you can live to friggin 100 years old if you want to. Genes also play a huge rule. I've seen vegans die at the age of 30 from genetic-related diseases and conditions. I've seen carnivorous that eat nothing but fried steak and what not live until they are 100. Just frustrates me is all. I can understand if we are going out to eat obviously I won't invite a vegetarian to an all you can eat steakhouse.. I've live quite peacefully with my in-laws and relatives who are either vegan or vegetarian I wish more would follow suit.

You're way off base here. This all started when someone asked me about my diet on the G4 forums and I told him I was vegetarian. Oti jumped in to the conversation and started talking about how it's pointless to be vegetarian. Then I posted this thread here so that I could link it to my facebook as I am often asked "oh how come you're vegetarian?" "where do you get your protein?" etc. I get bored of anwering these questions over and over.
I'm just stating my views, I started this thread, I'm not coming after anyone, you guys are coming here and criticising me not the other way around, so take your own advice here.

Also it's not true that you can't get balanced nutrition on a vegetarian diet without supplementing. B12 which is the one people alwayse talk about is available from many sources such as avocado and yeast. Though it's great to take a multivitamin vegetarian or not.

If you want to eat meat go ahead, knock yourself out, why are you even reading this thread if you're not interested in vegetarianism?

It's just so weird how some people react to the notion of not eating meat. Like they're afraid it will spread and they'll be the lone meat eater in a world of vegetarians and bo forced to become vegetarian against their will.

Reminds me of homophobia kinda.

Or like the people on Fox news that talk about how global warming is a liberal conspiracy to lower the american standard of living.

[Oti]

why are you even reading this thread if you're not interested in vegetarianism?

I can't speak for anyone else who's chimed in thus far, but I'M here because I don't like the way you're spreading what is essentially propaganda. What's worse is that you spread it to people who don't know any better (like that new fellow on the G4 forum) and they believe it.

Now, I'm not saying you're just spouting a bunch of crap. I know you're not. Some of what you've said IS true. Vegetarians CAN be just as healthy and strong and whatever as meat eaters. Being a vegetarian CAN reduce the risks of some diseases. What gets me is when you start coming off as if all meat is bad and it's killing us slowly.

Did you know there are crappy vegetables out there? Yeah. There are. There are vegetables that will more than likely make you sick. Why? Pesticides. Cheap fertilizer. Insects, republicans and other pests. Sitting in a facility for too long... all those factors can take something great and pure, such as a vegetable, and totally ruin it.

Conversely, there is meat out there that ISN'T shot full of hormones. That ISN'T tortured. That ISN'T ground up with rats and chunks of bone. There is good meat.

That's why I think you come off like a religious nut about this. You're in such denial that there can be any good meat (or dairy, apparently) and that these things are, like, tricks being played on us, or something. Like the powers that run the world are sitting around a big a** table, going, "Yeah, yeah. Did you hear about the new outbreak of mad cow? Haha! The plan's workin', boys!" It's nonsense at best and downright ridiculous at worst.

Vegetarianism has it's benefits and its drawbacks. Eating meat does as well. We all know that. This topic would be more peaceful, however, if you didn't try to make it sound like meat is the devil. It ain't foosball.

Also, whoever brings up B12 when talking about meat is pretty dumb. The B's are in so many things it's like a conspiracy in itself. Not even close to a valid anti-vegetarian argument if you ask me.

[Captain Obvious]

At the risk of encouraging further hate speech... I'm curious as to your views on veganism / consuming dairy / consuming eggs and so forth.

I know very few vegatarians or vegans, so it's rare for me to get one's opinion on the matter.

[Oti]

If this is coming off as "hate speech", I'm very sorry. That's not my intention.

If you need any views, you can always ask Google. I'm sure there are millions of forums dedicated to meat/dairy-free diets.

[arsenette]

I read this thread for the same reason I read all other threads about things I don't follow. To learn. Contrary to popular belief I don't walk around thinking I know everything. My motto in life is that as soon as you stop questioning things and stop wanting to think then you stop growing as a person. Was doing fine until the last couple posts you made David. Why does everything always have to revert to name calling and bringing in stupid things like irrational hate towards a new station you can just not tune into and people irrational hatred for those who want to have sex with the same gender? For someone who is advocating something that can potentially change a life .. you sure have a funny way of expressing yourself when proposed against someone who doesn't share your views.

And as a matter of fact I did learn something today. I didn't know about the "B" thing since that is what I always was told by all Doctors when I was asked to go vegetarian a few years back to see if it helped my headaches.

[davidcampbell]

Dec 31, 2009 5:14:06 GMT -5 Captain Obvious said:

At the risk of encouraging further hate speech... I'm curious as to your views on veganism / consuming dairy / consuming eggs and so forth.

I know very few vegatarians or vegans, so it's rare for me to get one's opinion on the matter.

Well I'm vegetarian not vegan myself, slowly working closer to being vegan by eating less and less dairy, but like I said I like icecream once in a while, cheese too. Also it's unless you're cooking all your own food it's hard to read the label or ask the ingredients every time you eat something.

We don't have all the enzymes in our bodies to digest dairy products and it causes minor intestinal problems like gas and causes phlegm to form in your nose and throat.(goat milk is closer to human milk and more easily digestable) Also it can cause arthritis because of the large amounts of calcum. (calcium builds up in the joints) My mom actually cured her arthritis by quitting dairy when she was about 50. I'ts not the worst thing in moderation I think, but I mostly want to avoid it because of the miserable lives dairy cows lead. I've also heard that because of how unhealthy most of the cows are, a large percentage of what your drinking is puss! (I don't actually know if that's true or not)

I think eggs are fine as long as you get organic free range eggs. There is actually an organic egg farm in my town, so I buy their eggs exclusivly (local is usually best). I have no plans to reduce my egg consumption. The nice thing about chickens is that they will generally lay one egg a day and their not even fertile, no rooster is required, you can just let a hen run around in your back yard and go pick up your egg for breakfast every morning, the hens don't even seem to mind. (Yes I used to have chickens)

Non-organic non-freerange eggs on the other hand are full of hormones and the hens are treated horribly...like reaaaly bad.

[scopedknife]

The only things that bothers me about it, that I'm not sure anybody's mentioned yet, is the fact that, although most proteins can be found without meat, there are certain specific proteins that are uniquely found in meat, unless you're into taking vitamin pills etc. Even my friend of godly fitness has to take the occasional pill containing 8000% of his daily vitamin C intake (lol).

[Oti]

Dairy doesn't cause arthritis. It MIGHT contribute to it, but then again, so might corn, red meat, oats, wheat, rye, citrus fruits, eggs, potatoes, nuts and caffeinated drinks such as soda and coffee. Chances are if you have moderate amounts of dairy, you're going to be fine.

It's great that your mom got rid of her arthritis by quitting dairy, but that doesn't work for everyone. There's no scientific proof of it.

The cows that leak puss into the milk (which isn't a large percentage, by the way. It's very, very small) are the ones treated with hormones. Those are the ones you avoid, like I said above.

Eggs are great as long as they're quality, like you said.

[baronbk]

I used to only eat dominoes pizza (cheese), before that I only ate tomato soup with goldfish in it, before that I only ate bread with various types of dip, and I was completely healthy during that whole time. I was also really skinny and was on swim team, soccer, and skii team! So I will now call that the Baron diet. I think the Baron diet can be the healthy middle ground between Oti and Davids diets.

Seriously though this thread should just end. David wanted to present his reasoning, Oti wanted to present his argument against it (albeit in a slightly unconstructive way), and both have done just that. It's gotten out of hand so just let it die.. or eat the Baron diet