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Post by subtleagent on Oct 9, 2022 19:16:32 GMT -5
Do you think he would have retired after that? I mean a second kanzen would've been a good note to go out on and given how he ended up declining massively afterwards. 23 in general was just not a good tournament for him. They make him run Stage 1 twice, rob him 5 seconds that would've consolidated a second kanzen easy, and took FOREVER to introduce him. It's easy to see why he was so pissed off during said intro. By the time 31 rolled around it was clear he was just done, though I feel like his trifecta of Stage 1 fails really broke his competitive spirit whilst his fail in 28 (which I think even Asami took notice of given she was NOT happy to see him give up in the last 10 seconds if his 28 interview is anything to go by) plus that dumb forced retirement pretty much finished it off.
I don't think we would've seen another Yusuke story given all that. I mean he told Levi in 20 that he was pretty much on his way out and while he did hold together in Shin-SASUKE for the most part it was clear he wasn't as strong as he was in the golden era. So what do you think? I feel like that second win would've been the perfect closure to his career, but do you think he would've hung it up after 23 had he won?
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Post by dakohosu on Oct 10, 2022 14:11:05 GMT -5
Tbh I don't think him winning a second time would've changed much.
I'm not a psychotherapist, but a part of me definitely felt as though Nagano's motivation just tanked after he won the first time, like he got what he wanted and that was that, and he only continued competing for the community spirit and to help with the show's survival as he was obviously the face of Sasuke at the time. He just seemed to care a lot less when he cleared or failed in Shin-Sasuke, like comparing his reaction to his near misses in 12 and 23 was like comparing a crushing defeat to an 'oh well' moment. His lack of motivation was also pretty evident by the fact that he disqualified himself and didn't accept a re-run in 18, as well as not accepting a re-run in 21 in spite of being robbed. Both would've been fair situations (unlike Yamada in 12) but it was almost as though he just couldn't be bothered; I'd wager this wouldn't have been the case if the same thing happened in like 16.
Basically what I'm trying to say is that if Nagano specifically wanted to end his career after a win, he would've done so after 17, as winning full stop is clearly what mattered to him rather than wanting to dominate consistently like Yusuke does currently. The reason he kept competing was driven by something else, which my guess would be a combination of camaraderie among fellow competitors, and making sure that Sasuke continued to survive in what was a pretty dire time for Monster9. Let's not forget that had Nagano won in 23, there would've been a good chance that Yuuji may not have won at all, so their biggest mascot just quitting in a time with no immediate replacement would've been pretty dire for the show's ratings. Nagano's always struck me as a selfless person so I don't think he would've been able to bring himself to do such a thing. Yes, I know he’d just started a family at the time, which is obviously more important than a game show, but he still continued to compete in spite of this. I don’t think this would’ve changed whether he had won or not.
The main reason he retired when he did was likely because Inui had clearly tried to push the All-Stars aside in favour of the Shin-Sedai and Yusuke, as well as the fact that Nagano's interest was at an all-time low due to his age, family commitments, and recent performances, so he didn't feel like he was that important to the show's survival (unlike in earlier eras) nor did he enjoy competing whatsoever anymore, again unlike earlier eras where he was performing at his best. Nagano had incredible levels of sportsmanship, but even someone like him can only take so many disappointing fails until they start to just give up; besides, he was fighting a losing battle as he was already pushing 40, and he clearly knew that. I'm actually surprised he didn't retire after 28, given the attempt to impose said retirement on him, as well as the fact he straight-up said in a post-tournament interview that he didn't like competing anymore.
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Post by Messup434 on Oct 10, 2022 19:17:38 GMT -5
I agree with you on most stuff you wrote there dakohosu, great analysis, but on him not accepting the reruns I'm not sure. I think at least in 18 he wanted to keep it "pure" and since what happened was essentially his doing, he didn't feel he should go again. Although it could also be true that he didn't want to win a second straight tournament. I could see that making it all mean less to him if he dominated twice in a row. 21 might be a different story, but even then I feel like he was being a purist more than anything. Then it makes sense that he (rightfully) argued it in 23. I know the feeling - even when a failure isn't really your fault, it means less when you make it on your rerun.
Just my two cents, I really like your explanation though.
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Post by ppurdy20 on Oct 15, 2022 17:29:13 GMT -5
I agree with you on most stuff you wrote there dakohosu, great analysis, but on him not accepting the reruns I'm not sure. I think at least in 18 he wanted to keep it "pure" and since what happened was essentially his doing, he didn't feel he should go again. Although it could also be true that he didn't want to win a second straight tournament. I could see that making it all mean less to him if he dominated twice in a row. 21 might be a different story, but even then I feel like he was being a purist more than anything. Then it makes sense that he (rightfully) argued it in 23. I know the feeling - even when a failure isn't really your fault, it means less when you make it on your rerun. Just my two cents, I really like your explanation though. Quick thought about Sasuke 18 with Nagano. Final Ring/Gliding Ring wasn't attempted until Nagano at 21. Is there a chance that the obstacle would've had the same design flaw in 18 as it had in 21? Do you think Nagano still clears 18 then (all this assuming he takes the retry on Shin-Cliffhanger and clears)? I'm leaning more towards yes when I compare 18's Stage Three w/ Sasuke 21. To answer the original question, I don't know if he would've retired after a 2nd Kanzen in 23. While my preference would've been that (Kanzen at 23 and retire), my guess is that he would've kept competing after 23 until Yuuji (or whomever else) took over. Makoto was still THE guy to me from 18-23 and Yuuji only just broke through in 22 (not to mention Shunsuke took the hiatus for the Olympics and seemed like the young guy to that could take the baton from Nagano). It would've been a struggle for the producers to lose their GOAT cold turkey. |
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Post by dakohosu on Oct 15, 2022 18:21:04 GMT -5
I agree with you on most stuff you wrote there dakohosu, great analysis, but on him not accepting the reruns I'm not sure. I think at least in 18 he wanted to keep it "pure" and since what happened was essentially his doing, he didn't feel he should go again. Although it could also be true that he didn't want to win a second straight tournament. I could see that making it all mean less to him if he dominated twice in a row. 21 might be a different story, but even then I feel like he was being a purist more than anything. Then it makes sense that he (rightfully) argued it in 23. I know the feeling - even when a failure isn't really your fault, it means less when you make it on your rerun. Just my two cents, I really like your explanation though. Quick thought about Sasuke 18 with Nagano. Final Ring/Gliding Ring wasn't attempted until Nagano at 21. Is there a chance that the obstacle would've had the same design flaw in 18 as it had in 21? Do you think Nagano still clears 18 then (all this assuming he takes the retry on Shin-Cliffhanger and clears)? I'm leaning more towards yes when I compare 18's Stage Three w/ Sasuke 21. To answer the original question, I don't know if he would've retired after a 2nd Kanzen in 23. While my preference would've been that (Kanzen at 23 and retire), my guess is that he would've kept competing after 23 until Yuuji (or whomever else) took over. Makoto was still THE guy to me from 18-23 and Yuuji only just broke through in 22 (not to mention Shunsuke took the hiatus for the Olympics and seemed like the young guy to that could take the baton from Nagano). It would've been a struggle for the producers to lose their GOAT cold turkey. On the topic of the Gliding Ring, it’s impossible to tell. Some people have said it was always intended to be how it was in 21 and got nerfed when Nagano failed it, however clearly that isn’t true because why would the track be angled downwards and why would there be a stopper at both the start and end of the track? Either way, it was clearly a malfunction of a badly oiled down track. Whether they would’ve repeated this mistake in another tournament or if 21’s setup was just one bad egg is shooting an arrow into thin air. That said, my guess is maybe not in 18 given that the obstacles were all new that tournament and so they probably went extra ham on testing. After all the Stick Slider was okay in 18 but completely broken in 20, so the same could’ve happened to the Gliding Ring. Yep even if he had won I don’t think he would retire for any other reason than to keep the show going, given that 24’s renewal would supposedly be akin to 25’s, effectively shutting Yuuji out of the picture of Kanzen for the time being. There would’ve indeed been no one else to hand the baton to. Maybe this is an unpopular opinion but I actually think his last run in 32 was the best way to go out; a nail biting race to the finish and just coming up short of clearing. Had he reached Stage 3 he would’ve had to run in the rain and would’ve failed anticlimactically early, while obviously an early Stage 1 fail isn’t a great sendoff either. If he retired after 23, I feel like too many people would lose interest even if there was another competitor to hand off to, purely because of his legacy and how he carried the show at that time. By the time 32 came around, he really wasn’t in the picture anymore and Inui was constantly trying to sideline him anyway. |
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Post by subtleagent on Oct 15, 2022 21:16:22 GMT -5
I still personally think they felt the Final Ring was too hard and by that point no one reached the Final Stage or even came close (though as we know the low clear rate is probably more to blame for that when you consider there were only 7 attempts on Stage 3 from 18 ~ 21) so they went with the Gliding Ring. I would say fair enough though, I mean the Final Ring isn't exactly easy to generate momentum from for the jump and given how cooked Nagano was just getting to the end, that doesn't leave much hope for other competitors. One could argue it could be done with training, but clearly with 4 straight tournaments of no Final Stages TBS clearly wasn't willing to take that gamble.
I still think the Sending Climber would've been fine without that bogus no feet rule, but then again it was never attempted so it's pretty difficult to gauge. Takeda definitely would've never completed it though I think Nagano would need more than one try to do it at minimum.
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Post by dakohosu on Oct 16, 2022 5:23:39 GMT -5
I still personally think they felt the Final Ring was too hard and by that point no one reached the Final Stage or even came close (though as we know the low clear rate is probably more to blame for that when you consider there were only 7 attempts on Stage 3 from 18 ~ 21) so they went with the Gliding Ring. I would say fair enough though, I mean the Final Ring isn't exactly easy to generate momentum from for the jump and given how cooked Nagano was just getting to the end, that doesn't leave much hope for other competitors. One could argue it could be done with training, but clearly with 4 straight tournaments of no Final Stages TBS clearly wasn't willing to take that gamble. I still think the Sending Climber would've been fine without that bogus no feet rule, but then again it was never attempted so it's pretty difficult to gauge. Takeda definitely would've never completed it though I think Nagano would need more than one try to do it at minimum. As per my last post I’m almost certain it wasn’t meant to be that way. Otherwise why would it be angled downwards and have a stopper if it wasn’t meant to just glide down, hell why was it called the Gliding Ring in 21? Nagano also got offered a rerun in 21 thus further confirming that the obstacle had malfunctioned. On the topic of the Sending Climber, I’m not a climber myself so can’t judge too much, but looking at the photos from Sasukepedia there seems to be way too many footholds, many looking like they should be handholds in terms of where they’re located. Obviously you can’t grab on to footholds, which would’ve potentially rendered the obstacle impossible. |
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Post by ahzoo on Oct 16, 2022 16:59:38 GMT -5
To answer the initial Q of Nagano retiring after Win #2, no. If Win #1, the Shin-Cliffhanger not being made properly in 18, the Gliding Ring fiasco, being cheated out of Win #2, the Ni-Ren WW incident, being forcibly retired by Inui, and being injured on the Long Jump due to a horrific H+S oversight could not get Nagano to retire, it is almost certain to me that Win #2 won't either. If anything, I'd argue that it would have the exact opposite effect.
As his interviews surrounding his 23 attempt [and even earlier than that, cf: The Levi Interview] all show, by the time that this tournament arrived, Nagano had very much made peace with the fact that Father Time was catching up with him and that, for better or worse, he was on his very last chances to Kanzen, and that he had to very much make them count. While it is very true that 23's entire handling pissed him off to no end, every single bit of evidence in 24 suggests that he simply used that anger and the foreboding knowledge that if he were to see some other competitor Kanzen again, that would be it insofar as his career's concerned as further motivation to try and silence the doubts as to his being able to Kanzen so late [as if the fact that the producers would've failed to stop him had they only shaved off 4.5s wasn't proof enough], and went so far as to make plans for his date with destiny in the Tower by way of borrowing a crane from the Yamada notebook.
This is not the behaviour pattern of someone entirely content to fall out of love after another heartbreak. In fact, I'd argue that it wasn't even the failure that spurred him to fight on: As Dakohosu and subtleagent both point out, for the majority of the Shin era, Nagano seemed to be almost completely obsessed with purity and staunchly refused any and all reruns caused by obstacle malfunctions that the producers would grant him, even though the failures that they caused were absolutely none of his fault.
So why was it that when the Slider Jump malfunction first occurred, he started protesting the failure the moment he hit the water, and by most accounts screamed bloody murder until the producers would give him a re-run, an offer that all past indications pointed towards his not wanting to take?
Nagano is no Yamada; the mere fact that this entire run took place, where otherwise, most of us would've marked it down as an asterisked First Stage failure. IMO, the mere fact that Nagano was so committed to overcoming this loss would indicate that there must have been a rain-change in Nagano's mentality - He wanted to win at all costs, purity and Father Time be damned.
From there, while most people would consider Nagano's 24 chooe job to simply be the start of the start that ultimately became his terminal decline, this failure stands in clear contrast in its method when compared to the failures in 25-26:
In 24, Nagano [who has up to that point been on a tear not at all dissimmilar from the ones that he would go on in the past] had simply been rushing through a part of the course he saw as a "gimme" [he had only cleared a Spider Walk literally a dozen times before], only for him to place his feet far below where the actual raised section was as a result and end up being cruelly reminded that there are no "gimme" obstacles in Sasuke, and there never will be [ignoring the Bungee Bridge, the Maruta Zuka, and the Net Bridge that is].
By contrast, in both 25 and 26, you can tell that whatever spark was there mentally had completely vanished into thin air, and even the most basic of obstacles was causing Nagano troubles that he would never have experienced in his past; The Dome Steps, Bridge Jump, and a Jumping Spider trampoline he had specifically been training for. So, what was the issue there?
My best guess is that Nagano Makoto in 24 had essentially set the perfect template for what Matachi Ryo would go through a scant five years later: Come close to winning it all in the last tournament, choke in Stage 1 before being forced to watch some nobody with only the one fluke breakout run the two tournaments previously before failing the Second Stage the last time [like, seriously, why does this Urusihara Yuuji fellow deserve to win more than Him?] go on to take the Kanzen of your dreams, and promptly fall into a depression that takes out your ability to compete for the next while.
As a result, whenever he had made it is goal to go out on a high in 27, if simply to raise all of Japan's spirits after the Tōhoku nightmare it had just gone through, he had managed to find the perfect pretext to entirely snap out of his heartbreak. The result? Nagano was able to clear the first two stages and even make a great go of the UCH without a trace of difficulty, as if the last two tournaments had never happened. The shadow was once again a man, and the spark missing from his heart returned with a vengeance.
As a result, in a timeline where he had never been cheated out of his rightful win in 23 [say, the producers only lob off 2.5s from the time limit instead of the whole 5], I think that this win would simply reinforce to him that, yes, he still deserved to be hailed as a titan of the competition, and while he certainly may not end up with as much of a point to prove, he would still be his self-assured monster, albeit one who is starting to decline out of old age. Heck, if he manages to Kanzen even with an arbitralily dropped time limit, Nagano might even be impervious to taking any mental slips to heart should they somehow still happen.
Nagano always competed because he wanted to, and because he understood the importance being the hero gave his performances. To have that ripped from you for a time is bound to destroy anybody's ability to compete, regardless of whatever nonsense time might be doing to his body. If anything, we truly need to credit his bounce-back in 27 far more than we truly do, for it cast away [however temporarily] his demons, and at the same time, chastise Inui's treatment of Nagano 28 and 29 all the harder for bringing them back with a vengeance.
As for how such a win might change the trajectory of the show and any renewals, who knows? Honestly, that discussion alone is far more deserving of a thread than the tired "What if [X] win with Yuuji in 24?" ones, and I might just be tempted to start it, assuming ofc, my response to this one doesn't derail it in that direction anyway lol.
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