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Post by dakohosu on Apr 10, 2022 3:26:09 GMT -5
Which formerly strong competitor do you think would embarrass themselves if they had to attempt the MODERN 3rd Stage?
Controversially I’d go with Shunsuke. The guy has never cleared the Flying Bar and it’s now the very first obstacle…..
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Post by sasukeninjawarrior on Apr 10, 2022 5:33:07 GMT -5
I think saying Shunsuke is a bit harsh considering that 32 he did almost clear it, and 33 nearly everyone failed it so I can't really fault them there. At this point the cradles are bigger so they might clear it. I feel however they would do a Darvish on sidewinder and biff the transfer.
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Post by dakohosu on Apr 10, 2022 10:06:36 GMT -5
I think saying Shunsuke is a bit harsh considering that 32 he did almost clear it, and 33 nearly everyone failed it so I can't really fault them there. At this point the cradles are bigger so they might clear it. I feel however they would do a Darvish on sidewinder and biff the transfer. I mean in his most recent attempt at the obstacle (Sasuke Indonesia) he failed the first transition out of like six, which is what ultimately led me to put him; if he couldn't get past it in three attempts when he was in his prime, I wouldn't be surprised if he failed the first transition now that he hasn't properly trained for about 4-5 years now. I generally think an obstacle as easily failable as the Flying Bar shouldn't be the very first obstacle, as you run the risk of competitors' runs lasting about 5 seconds; like imagine how bad it would've been if it was the first obstacle of 33 when they added that dumb wire. The first obstacle of Stage 3 should always be more of a strength drainer for the rest of the course, like the Rumbling Dice or Roulette Cylinder. Another competitor that always sprung to mind would probably be the other trampolinist Daisuke Nakata. I always said he kinda got lucky in the sense that he competed in an era where basically no upper body strength was required for Stages 1 or 2 hence managed to make Stage 3 a few times, but his lack of upper body strength would've really hurt both his ability to clear more recent Stage 2s and do well on Stage 3. If he couldn't make it even halfway down the Lamp Grasper in three attempts (two of which saw him fail within about 2 seconds) he'd absolutely get annihilated by the Flying Bar or Salmon Ladder, even without his wrist injury. |
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Post by sasukewarrior333 on Apr 10, 2022 11:49:08 GMT -5
Most people who did well in 1-4 honestly, even if age wasn't a factor. I mean just look at Stage 3 in 1 vs 39.
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Post by sasukeninjawarrior on Apr 10, 2022 12:23:27 GMT -5
I think saying Shunsuke is a bit harsh considering that 32 he did almost clear it, and 33 nearly everyone failed it so I can't really fault them there. At this point the cradles are bigger so they might clear it. I feel however they would do a Darvish on sidewinder and biff the transfer. I mean in his most recent attempt at the obstacle (Sasuke Indonesia) he failed the first transition out of like six, which is what ultimately led me to put him; if he couldn't get past it in three attempts when he was in his prime, I wouldn't be surprised if he failed the first transition now that he hasn't properly trained for about 4-5 years now. I generally think an obstacle as easily failable as the Flying Bar shouldn't be the very first obstacle, as you run the risk of competitors' runs lasting about 5 seconds; like imagine how bad it would've been if it was the first obstacle of 33 when they added that dumb wire. The first obstacle of Stage 3 should always be more of a strength drainer for the rest of the course, like the Rumbling Dice or Roulette Cylinder. Another competitor that always sprung to mind would probably be the other trampolinist Daisuke Nakata. I always said he kinda got lucky in the sense that he competed in an era where basically no upper body strength was required for Stages 1 or 2 hence managed to make Stage 3 a few times, but his lack of upper body strength would've really hurt both his ability to clear more recent Stage 2s and do well on Stage 3. If he couldn't make it even halfway down the Lamp Grasper in three attempts (two of which saw him fail within about 2 seconds) he'd absolutely get annihilated by the Flying Bar or Salmon Ladder, even without his wrist injury. I mean everyone was failing the flying bar left and right, no one even cleared that course, and it also had the wire, so It explains why a lot failed due to the cradles being normal sized and the wire being there. |
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Post by subtleagent on Apr 10, 2022 22:28:49 GMT -5
How about Terukazu Ishikawa? In 27 he basically pulled the Flying Bar backwards and didn't even get a chance to swing. Imagine doing THAT when it's obstacle #1.
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Post by sasukewarrior333 on Apr 10, 2022 22:39:10 GMT -5
How about Terukazu Ishikawa? In 27 he basically pulled the Flying Bar backwards and didn't even get a chance to swing. Imagine doing THAT when it's obstacle #1. True, but that wasn't an athletic failure, just a silly moment. I think he would have learned from his mistake. That fail was hilarious though, he genuinely looked like he was enjoying swinging his body so much he forgot to actually attempt the objective of the obstacle. |
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Post by dakohosu on Apr 11, 2022 4:37:29 GMT -5
Ishikawa's fail was because he was about to execute the jump but didn't commit last minute, but then the swing was so violent that he just pulled the bar off backwards. Besides, in 39 the starting platform was so close to the first bar (so much so that loads of competitors had problems when their legs hit the platform when trying to swing) that he probably would've just fallen back on to the platform. Mind you, knowing Inui he'd probably just DQ him or something. I feel like he'd do decently well especially as he cleared the Swap Salmon Ladder twice which is probably a harder obstacle as you have to raise the bar upwards as well.
I knew someone would mention the earliest competitors, but tbh if a lot of them trained to the standards required today then I feel like they wouldn't do too terribly (assuming they haven't completely let themselves go as they'd all be in their 40s-50s). The main reason competitors seemed to be so much weaker back then was because the standards they were aspiring towards were way lower and obstacle-specific training was less of a thing. I mean Shingo couldn't clear the Cliffhanger Kai in his 20s but has been able to clear the Crazy Cliffhanger jump in his gym (big difference between practice and competition I know but still) at the age of 47.
I feel like Naoki Iketani would massively struggle on the current Stage 3 given that even 15 years ago he almost failed the Arm Rings and then immediately failed the Body Prop, and couldn't do the Salmon Ladder to save his life.
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zoran
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Post by zoran on Apr 11, 2022 7:22:07 GMT -5
Ishikawa's fail was because he was about to execute the jump but didn't commit last minute, but then the swing was so violent that he just pulled the bar off backwards. Besides, in 39 the starting platform was so close to the first bar (so much so that loads of competitors had problems when their legs hit the platform when trying to swing) that he probably would've just fallen back on to the platform. Mind you, knowing Inui he'd probably just DQ him or something. I feel like he'd do decently well especially as he cleared the Swap Salmon Ladder twice which is probably a harder obstacle as you have to raise the bar upwards as well. I knew someone would mention the earliest competitors, but tbh if a lot of them trained to the standards required today then I feel like they wouldn't do too terribly (assuming they haven't completely let themselves go as they'd all be in their 40s-50s). The main reason competitors seemed to be so much weaker back then was because the standards they were aspiring towards were way lower and obstacle-specific training was less of a thing. I mean Shingo couldn't clear the Cliffhanger Kai in his 20s but has been able to clear the Crazy Cliffhanger jump in his gym (big difference between practice and competition I know but still) at the age of 47. I feel like Naoki Iketani would massively struggle on the current Stage 3 given that even 15 years ago he almost failed the Arm Rings and then immediately failed the Body Prop, and couldn't do the Salmon Ladder to save his life. Have a video of Shingo doing this? |
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Post by subtleagent on Apr 11, 2022 8:36:29 GMT -5
Iketani GETTING to Stage 3 is pretty absurd at this point even given his Stage 1 record in these last 10 years has been pretty bad (3 sporadic tournaments and he hasn't even gotten past the 3rd obstacle). I don't see Iketani even getting one cradle on the Flying Bar and he has a bizarre penchant for disturbing digressions on obstacles (his Salmon Ladder digression in 27 being the worst) so no way he gets anywhere on modern Stage 3. Granted he barely trains for SASUKE if at all given it's always been more of a side project for him, but still.
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Post by m4tt3r0x on Apr 11, 2022 10:34:00 GMT -5
Ishikawa's fail was because he was about to execute the jump but didn't commit last minute, but then the swing was so violent that he just pulled the bar off backwards. Besides, in 39 the starting platform was so close to the first bar (so much so that loads of competitors had problems when their legs hit the platform when trying to swing) that he probably would've just fallen back on to the platform. Mind you, knowing Inui he'd probably just DQ him or something. I feel like he'd do decently well especially as he cleared the Swap Salmon Ladder twice which is probably a harder obstacle as you have to raise the bar upwards as well. I knew someone would mention the earliest competitors, but tbh if a lot of them trained to the standards required today then I feel like they wouldn't do too terribly (assuming they haven't completely let themselves go as they'd all be in their 40s-50s). The main reason competitors seemed to be so much weaker back then was because the standards they were aspiring towards were way lower and obstacle-specific training was less of a thing. I mean Shingo couldn't clear the Cliffhanger Kai in his 20s but has been able to clear the Crazy Cliffhanger jump in his gym (big difference between practice and competition I know but still) at the age of 47. I feel like Naoki Iketani would massively struggle on the current Stage 3 given that even 15 years ago he almost failed the Arm Rings and then immediately failed the Body Prop, and couldn't do the Salmon Ladder to save his life. Have a video of Shingo doing this? Instagram: Shingo4649 Scroll down to around June 2020 |
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Post by dakohosu on Apr 11, 2022 10:37:58 GMT -5
Here it is: www.instagram.com/tv/CBz_0nZg_Gh/It's about a foot shorter than the actual jump distance but still, the last time he attempted the Cliffhanger in competition was the Kai version and he couldn't even make it past the first ledge, and this was almost 20 years ago when he was supposedly much more 'in his prime'. He probably was generally more athletic in his 20s than now, but it just goes to show the effect that course standards have on competitor performances. Yuuji probably isn't as generally athletic in raw terms as he was in his early 30s, like his stamina would probably be lower, but he's able to do much harder obstacles than he did in his Kanzen years, because back then that level of difficulty didn't exist. Why push yourself to train for a standard that at the time would be seen as borderline ridiculous, when you can do just as well on the course of the era by doing what is required and not much more? It's actually impressive that guys in their 40s are still able to keep up with the course changes and difficulty spikes commanded, especially compared to a lot of the All-Stars who flat out just tanked during Shin-Sasuke. Iketani's poor performances on Stage 3 and more recently Stage 2 have always puzzled me. Sure he didn't train on Sasuke that much but the guy was a world-class gymnast and his entire career was based on his athletic abilities, yet you're telling me the guy couldn't even make it halfway up the Salmon Ladder or last more than 5 seconds on the Body Prop? What I also found weird was how his performances on Sasuke were getting significantly worse yet he was doing a lot better on other competitions like Pro Sportsman etc. It just seems weird. Besides, guys like Ishikawa and Mutou were in similar positions of career and not really training for Sasuke yet through pure athleticism they managed to do a lot better. And Iketani was the LEADER of their respective groups as well... |
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Post by sasukewarrior333 on Apr 11, 2022 10:46:09 GMT -5
I honestly feel like most of the Muscle Musical members were competing more for fun than anything (not to say there weren't any good performances out of any of them, because there certainly were) which is valid, obviously I don't think you should just waste a SASUKE placement if you're not gonna try at all but I think it's fine to just compete because you find it a fun hobby rather than a serious passion.
Referring back to Shunsuke, I think it's possible he would fail the Flying Bar again but I don't think it's likely.
All the tournaments he failed the Flying Bar in were tournaments where multiple other people failed the Flying Bar:
SASUKE 32: Yusuke Suzuki, Ragivaru Anastase and Tomohiro Kawaguchi also failed it while Brent Steffensen, Jun Sato, Andre Sihm and Drew Drechsel managed to beat it.
SASUKE 33: Kazuma Asa, Jun Sato and Yusuke Morimoto also failed it while only Drew Drechsel managed to beat it.
SASUKE Ninja Warrior Indonesia: International Competition: Ryo Matachi, Daniel Gil and Jake Murray all failed the first transition like Shunsuke. Additionally Perry Oosterlee, Yusuke Morimoto, Sergio Verdasco, Tri Mardyanto and Drew Drechsel all failed it albeit further on as well. No one was able to beat it with Sergio getting the furthest after gassing out on the final cradle.
My point is that all these instances had a 50% clear rate or less, everyone was struggling with in these tournaments. So I don't necessarily think it reflects on Shunsuke himself personally. (I don't remember what transitions everyone failed in 32 and 33 but I watched the Indonesia international special recently)
That said, you may have a point nowadays given Shunsuke has, as most of has noticed, lost a lot of passion for SASUKE in general.
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Post by LusitaniaAngel313 on Apr 21, 2022 20:42:00 GMT -5
Yeah I would hard agree on Iketani and co. Unfortunately I'm also agreeing with Shingo as we've yet to really see him attempt the 3rd stage after Nagano won. Yes he DID get there in 23 but like SASUKE 7, he had to immediately withdrawal...
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Post by dakohosu on Apr 22, 2022 2:43:00 GMT -5
Yeah I would hard agree on Iketani and co. Unfortunately I'm also agreeing with Shingo as we've yet to really see him attempt the 3rd stage after Nagano won. Yes he DID get there in 23 but like SASUKE 7, he had to immediately withdrawal... We did see him attempt Stage 3 on ANW vs Japan and he did make it to the Floating Boards, which was fairly impressive given how out of practice he was. I also felt as though his Stage 2 runs were somewhat convincing; he had no trouble with the Swap or Double Salmon Ladder+Unstable Bridge combo. Takeda by comparison I feel would’ve had a much tougher time given that he never even made it past the Salmon Ladder after 24. Not saying Shingo would’ve done particularly well on the modern Stage 3s, but I don’t think he would’ve done embarrassingly poorly. He probably would’ve reached the Crazy Cliffhanger had he not swallowed water in 30. |
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Post by subtleagent on Apr 22, 2022 9:05:02 GMT -5
Here's one I think no one ever mentioned. That being Nagano. IIRC he did attempt and fail the Pipe Slider in 34 during a test shot. I assume he either climbed the scaffolding to get to it or was craned up there to do it (No way in hell he got past the Ultra Crazy Cliffhanger + Vertical Limit combo to get there). I guess it's not really embarrassing to get to the Pipe Slider by itself cause the Cliffhanger Dimension and Vertical Limit are diabolical as is. But, him failing one of the easiest Pipe Slider after beating the hardest one just shows how out of practice he's become.
That said I'm not sure Nagano would last in modern Stage 3. Knowing that he failed the nerfed Pipe Slider kind of has me worried he'd fall early somewhere. Possibly even as early as the Flying Bar/Sidewinder transition.
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Post by zoran on Apr 22, 2022 10:10:10 GMT -5
Yeah I would hard agree on Iketani and co. Unfortunately I'm also agreeing with Shingo as we've yet to really see him attempt the 3rd stage after Nagano won. Yes he DID get there in 23 but like SASUKE 7, he had to immediately withdrawal... We did see him attempt Stage 3 on ANW vs Japan and he did make it to the Floating Boards, which was fairly impressive given how out of practice he was. I also felt as though his Stage 2 runs were somewhat convincing; he had no trouble with the Swap or Double Salmon Ladder+Unstable Bridge combo. Takeda by comparison I feel would’ve had a much tougher time given that he never even made it past the Salmon Ladder after 24. Not saying Shingo would’ve done particularly well on the modern Stage 3s, but I don’t think he would’ve done embarrassingly poorly. He probably would’ve reached the Crazy Cliffhanger had he not swallowed water in 30. He probably wouldn't have cleared in 30, given his time at the backstream was much worse than Yuuji who timed out on the walls. |
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Post by subtleagent on Apr 22, 2022 13:32:34 GMT -5
We did see him attempt Stage 3 on ANW vs Japan and he did make it to the Floating Boards, which was fairly impressive given how out of practice he was. I also felt as though his Stage 2 runs were somewhat convincing; he had no trouble with the Swap or Double Salmon Ladder+Unstable Bridge combo. Takeda by comparison I feel would’ve had a much tougher time given that he never even made it past the Salmon Ladder after 24. Not saying Shingo would’ve done particularly well on the modern Stage 3s, but I don’t think he would’ve done embarrassingly poorly. He probably would’ve reached the Crazy Cliffhanger had he not swallowed water in 30. He probably wouldn't have cleared in 30, given his time at the backstream was much worse than Yuuji who timed out on the walls. I agree, Wall Lift was never his strongest obstacle and wet Wall Lift doesn't seem like something he'd be too good at either. Especially if he got caught under the foam blocks like Ryo in 28 or Yuuji in the same tournament. |
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Post by dakohosu on Apr 24, 2022 5:48:48 GMT -5
Fair point, though if he did clear Stage 2 I don't think he would've EMBARRASSED himself, especially given that the first half of RISING's Stage 3 was unfailable (literally, as in no one failed before the CCH from 28-31); also the fact that he managed to make it past the Swap Salmon Ladder with ease shows that he still had a lot of athletic prowess. He also trained a lot at Kishimoto's back yard prior to the tournament; I feel like 29-30 was where he bounced back from the verge of retirement with a new level of confidence hence why he competed in 29's trials to prove himself. I feel like he would've made it to the Crazy Cliffhanger jump but obviously had no chance of clearing it.
Takeda on the other hand really sucked during that period; 3 fails on the first half of Stage 1 and only 1 clear on one of the easiest Stage 1s, followed by a worse Swap Salmon Ladder attempt than Wakky. I definitely feel like he would've failed really early on the more recent Stage 3s. Even in his prime he was quite poor at swinging obstacles, and both the most recent first obstacles of Stage 3 (the Drum Hopper and Flying Bar) involve swinging and thrusting your body with momentum. So I wouldn't be surprised if he gave the equivalent of a Sasuke 32 Suzuki performance, if not worse.
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Post by LusitaniaAngel313 on May 5, 2022 0:13:28 GMT -5
Yeah I would hard agree on Iketani and co. Unfortunately I'm also agreeing with Shingo as we've yet to really see him attempt the 3rd stage after Nagano won. Yes he DID get there in 23 but like SASUKE 7, he had to immediately withdrawal... We did see him attempt Stage 3 on ANW vs Japan and he did make it to the Floating Boards, which was fairly impressive given how out of practice he was. I also felt as though his Stage 2 runs were somewhat convincing; he had no trouble with the Swap or Double Salmon Ladder+Unstable Bridge combo. Takeda by comparison I feel would’ve had a much tougher time given that he never even made it past the Salmon Ladder after 24. Not saying Shingo would’ve done particularly well on the modern Stage 3s, but I don’t think he would’ve done embarrassingly poorly. He probably would’ve reached the Crazy Cliffhanger had he not swallowed water in 30. I remember saying in the SASUKE 30 guessing game I had him failing crazy cliffhanger as a best case scenario so I definitely had hope but obviously... and yeah USA vs Japan I will admit WAS impressing since the obstacles are more atuned towards American bodies which are bigger than most Japanese can say. |
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