Do you agree with different time limits for females?

[dakohosu]

Do you agree that female competitors should be given a higher time limit?

Personally I think yes but not by 45 seconds, especially as competitors like Jessie Graff have shown that female competitors have the capability to be just as athletic as a lot of the men. Especially given that the obstacle where the men’s bigger statures would give them an advantage, the Tackle, is a lot lighter for the female competitors anyway.

Personally I’d give them an extra 10 seconds and keep the Tackle the same weight as it is, not 40-45 seconds as that’s just too long and it encourages them to go slower than they would and could anyway. Besides, Jessie only got an extra 10 seconds when she attempted Stage 2 which seemed entirely fair.

On a side note I’m also glad they scrapped the time increase for over 50s, given that guys like Yuuji and Suzuki etc. definitely will not need an extra 40 seconds to complete Stage 1 at the rate they’re going. 50 also seems like a really arbitrary number, as though between 48 and 49 you’re fine but once you hit 50 your stamina tanks and your lung capacity shrinks.....

[m4tt3r0x]

Tough call because Jessie has shown that it's possible for a female to be faster and stronger than male competitors on the same course, yet females are automatically given the time bonus without considering their individuality. I think Japan has plenty of strong women like Ayano who could potentially clear without the time boost, but on average realistically even a joke woman competitor versus a joke male competitor the woman is gonna be weaker most of the time. It's just biology. So I agree the time limit should be increased for them but not as much as it is. Maybe you can even give each female the option to wave the bonus time away if they want.

[subtleagent]

I would say at most 10 - 20 extra seconds, but definitely not 45. I get they really want some females to clear, but it's not like the current female competitor pool is necessarily weak. A few have gotten to the Dragon Glider. And of course there's Ayano and Jessie. IDK 45 just seems too desperate and it takes away from the achievement.

[dakohosu]

Feb 10, 2022 18:32:57 GMT -5 m4tt3r0x said:

Tough call because Jessie has shown that it's possible for a female to be faster and stronger than male competitors on the same course, yet females are automatically given the time bonus without considering their individuality. I think Japan has plenty of strong women like Ayano who could potentially clear without the time boost, but on average realistically even a joke woman competitor versus a joke male competitor the woman is gonna be weaker most of the time. It's just biology. So I agree the time limit should be increased for them but not as much as it is. Maybe you can even give each female the option to wave the bonus time away if they want.

Yeah agreed, though it's a case of 'where else do you draw the line?'. Athleticism isn't a quantifiable measure so it's not like they could pick only Ayano and Jessie out and give them the normal time limit just because they've been more successful in the past; we've also had a load of other female athletes compete who have never tried Sasuke before so it becomes a really blurry line to identify who should get a time increase and who shouldn't.

I do understand why the Stage 2 time limit increase is smaller than Stage 1's as well as the Wall Lifting being the same weight, given that any female who's strong enough to beat Stage 1 has effectively proven that they're capable of hanging with the men and hence don't need much of an edge on Stage 2. But I just think 45 seconds in Stage 1 is way too much especially as it encourages most of the joke females to go ridiculously slowly thus further drawing out the runtime.

Also on the subject of joke competitors, whether it's a male or female, they all have effectively zero chance of clearing anyway (bar Can Yutaka who at least USED to be kind of a joke competitor) so it actually nullifies the argument; adding 50% to the time limit just so the joke females can do slightly 'better' is pointless because they're going to fail either way, and it also gives a lot of the stronger females an arguably unfair advantage. The time increase for females should be based on what's fair for the competitors that COULD clear; I think 20 seconds is more than enough personally.

[sasukewarrior333]

My take is give them the extra time if they ask for it. 10-15ish seconds seems reasonable. Just to be fair, if a male competitor has a health condition that makes the course harder for him (i.e asthma) let him have it too if he has the necessary documents to prove it, it's only fair.

I mean put it this way, of the female clears we have so far, extra time didn't exist in SASUKE 2 so that's a non discussion. Jessie would've cleared 34's Stage 1 with the regular time limit and 37's Stage 2 with the regular time limit, and I feel she would've cleared with the regular time limits as she would've pushed herself harder (she could definitely do the Wall Lift faster and clear 34's Stage 2 with the regular time limit and she easily could've shaved 0.5 seconds off her time in 37's Stage 1 if needed to clear with the regular time limit) so I honestly feel like thus far extra time has made very little difference for women's success. I honestly feel like female competitors on Jessie's level don't even need the extra time, so maybe experiment with only letting women who have never cleared Stage 1 have extra time and making women who have cleared run with regular time. At the moment that means two women one of whom is deep in SASUKE retirement and one who can't compete right now due to a pandemic, but I'm sure these numbers will increase over time lol.

[dakohosu]

Feb 11, 2022 13:56:34 GMT -5 sasukewarrior333 said:

My take is give them the extra time if they ask for it. 10-15ish seconds seems reasonable. Just to be fair, if a male competitor has a health condition that makes the course harder for him (i.e asthma) let him have it too if he has the necessary documents to prove it, it's only fair.

I mean put it this way, of the female clears we have so far, extra time didn't exist in SASUKE 2 so that's a non discussion. Jessie would've cleared 34's Stage 1 with the regular time limit and 37's Stage 2 with the regular time limit, and I feel she would've cleared with the regular time limits as she would've pushed herself harder (she could definitely do the Wall Lift faster and clear 34's Stage 2 with the regular time limit and she easily could've shaved 0.5 seconds off her time in 37's Stage 1 if needed to clear with the regular time limit) so I honestly feel like thus far extra time has made very little difference for women's success. I honestly feel like female competitors on Jessie's level don't even need the extra time, so maybe experiment with only letting women who have never cleared Stage 1 have extra time and making women who have cleared run with regular time. At the moment that means two women one of whom is deep in SASUKE retirement and one who can't compete right now due to a pandemic, but I'm sure these numbers will increase over time lol.

You make a good point. We don't really have enough reference point to work out how much extra time the average athletic female needs over the average athletic male, given that most fail relatively early. Which makes such a huge hike in the time limit even more arbitrary and based off far less actual rationale. We did see a lot of female competitors take a lot longer to traverse obstacles in the older days, but then this was also the case for most rookie male competitors as well.

I'm not sure how well it would sit with competitors saying 'you've cleared before so you have to run with the regular time limit' especially as we might get an insanely athletic rookie female competitor who's more than capable of clearing yet gets the 'unfair' benefit of an extra 35-40 seconds. It makes sense but I feel like it could become one of those infamous controversial rulings lol. I think give them an extra 10-20 seconds as I think that's a fair trade-off between encouraging more strong female competitors to have a shot of clearing (combined with the lighter Tackle) but also not taking the piss. It would also encourage a lot more of the joke females not to go INSANELY slowly and draw out the run time - I'm looking at you KAREN (before I get blasted by the moderators, I know she's technically not a 'joke' competitor, but she's a recurring celebrity who doesn't train for the show and always fails really early so it fits into the same vein imo).

Yeah I definitely agree with giving somewhat handicapped competitors a time boost, but I'd argue most handicaps severe enough would just result in a competitor not being allowed to compete. Also it's again a case of 'where do you draw the line'... Kanno's technically got a recurring shoulder injury but it mostly doesn't affect his runs (until it does, and then it REALLY does....) so should he get an increase in time limit? I'd argue no.

[sasukewarrior333]

You raise some good points! Does anyone remember whether Jessie did full weight Tackle or reduced weight Tackle? I can't really remember, I swear I recall her only having an increased time limit but she might've had a reduced weight Tackle as well.

As for the issue of benefits for male competitors with handicaps, I was thinking conditions that aren't dangerous for you to compete with but can't always be trained away for individual competiors as it would be unfair for them to be held to the same standards despite having an issue they have no control over. I think Kanno is a tricky case because he's got an injury but it only acts up under certain circumstances.

[subtleagent]

She did the full weight in 34, but not 37.

[dakohosu]

Tbh I had no idea she did the full-weight Tackle in 34, and she only got about 8 seconds increase on Stage 1 yet easily cleared with more than that amount of time left on the clock and wasn't rushing whatsoever. Kacy Catanzaro also almost cleared Stage 1 in 32 with an equivalently heavy Tackle and barely any more time than the men as well, though she got All Cut due to some controversies (anyone know what these were by the way? I heard vague rumors but nothing definite).

So it's been proven multiple times that women are more than capable of hanging with the men; the only reason I can think of for the recently introduced ridiculously extended time limit is that they wanted more JAPANESE female competitors to clear and thus allowed for that leeway so that Ayano had a decent shot of reaching Stage 2.

I think it's because the number of athletic (and when I mean athletic I mean they could clear Stage 1) females is very low in Sasuke, partially because Kunoichi used to exist which almost effectively implied 'Sasuke is too hard for you so here's an easier course where you can shine more' which fundamentally discouraged a lot of females from attempting Sasuke. After all we've had former Kunoichi Kanzens fail really early on Stage 1 in Sasuke. Coincidentally they also introduced the massively extended time limit after Kunoichi seemed to cease to exist likely in an attempt to reintroduce strong female contendors, and that's also when Ayano started competing in Sasuke again rather than Kunoichi.

ANW by comparison never had a female course nor did it have any extensions for females (correct me if I'm wrong, my knowledge on ANW is pretty piss poor) which forced a lot of the women to massively up their game which is why people like Graff and Labreck etc. are so strong. Female competitors in Japan had the luxury of being able to do better on an easier course but that meant that most fundamentally don't prepare sufficiently for the difficulty of Sasuke, and so that's probs why they've given women so much leeway now that it's Sasuke or nothing... because they want females to clear but have a lot less confidence in them doing so for the above reasons.

[sasukewarrior333]

I always thought Kacy only got cut due being shown in the Navi. Maybe I'm wrong.

I agree that the extremely low amount of clears from women only has an extremely small part to do with athletic differences. Japanese women are usually around the same height as or marginally shorter then Japanese men, of whom multiple of shorter stature have been able to do the Warped Wall for over 2 decades. But around when Kunoichi came around, it basically implanted this idea that "Well you got one in SASUKE 2, but that's all there's ever gonna be. How about you come do this course instead?" While I don't think that was the intention, it basically caused so many women to just think that SASUKE was a pipe dream especially when only 4 men have ever won it.

Honestly I've always thought maybe Kunoichi should've just been a different course not exclusively for women, speaking from a guy's perspective here in saying that I honestly don't think Kunoichi would be any easier for men than it is for women if anything it might actually be harder on average given it's balance and speed oriented and that's something heavier builds struggle with a lot. Plus, Kunoichi just looks really fun, don't get me wrong I'd love to go on SASUKE one day but a lot of the obstacles seem so brutal on the hands even though they aren't dangerous. I also think many modern male competitors trying Kunoichi courses from the early tournmanets woulld struggle, what with how many train almost exclusively for Stage 3 and how balance oriented Kunoichi's Stage 1 used to be. There's like 3 balance obstacles in SASUKE at the moment at a push. (maybe Quad Steps, Rolling Hill and Fish Bone)

Anyway, back to the topic at hand. While I'm thankful Kunoichi exists as we have gotten some good moments from it, I just really wish that it hadn't had this unfortunate side effect of discouraging women from really pushing themselves and training for SASUKE. I mean can't Ayano literally do obstacles like the Vertical Limit Tri and Cliffhanger Dimension in practice? That could very well be me misremembering but I recall hearing that somewhere. Obviously that doesn't translate to beating the obstacle in competition after all stamina is a thing but still.

[subtleagent]

Kacy repeatedly interrupted production for 32 and was one of the main causes as to why the tournament turned out so disastrously. Arsenette got blamed for it and the rest is history.

Agreed, the theme was more balance rather than endurance and Sponge Bridge can attest that no matter the gender it could still fell you. In fact I'd argue if they did allow men to run KUNOICHI (which would defeat the purpose of the name, but that's beside the point) we'd have the reverse of what we have in SASUKE. And some of the obstacles were actually far more difficult than their SASUKE counterparts (ex: Enchu Nori vs Balance Tank). KUNOICHI 2001's Stage 1 in general I would argue was harder than SASUKE 19 mostly because each obstacle required near perfect execution and timing with a time limit that didn't really allow much of that. Not that 19 had a lenient time limit either, but it felt like it had more wiggle room for error compared to K2001.

I don't know if I'm alone in this boat, but I personally found the reboot a bit of a let down since most of it was just copied from SASUKE and toned down which really defeated the purpose of making it feel unique. And the few new obstacles we got were pretty underwhelming. Fish Bone is inoffensive at it can still take you out should you rush it, but then we get the Slide Walk which ended up creating the Ring Slider. IMO neither one was that interesting to watch, and that weird tackle ball thing that I just wasn't too fond of, oh and let's not forget the Pipe Hold which I think needs no explanation as to why people hate it. And in the case of 10 and 11 we get nerfed Double Pendulums and Dragon Gliders where pretty much every fail amounted to the trampoline jump and it just felt really underwhelming.

[dakohosu]

Feb 13, 2022 13:11:55 GMT -5 subtleagent said:

Kacy repeatedly interrupted production for 32 and was one of the main causes as to why the tournament turned out so disastrously. Arsenette got blamed for it and the rest is history.

Agreed, the theme was more balance rather than endurance and Sponge Bridge can attest that no matter the gender it could still fell you. In fact I'd argue if they did allow men to run KUNOICHI (which would defeat the purpose of the name, but that's beside the point) we'd have the reverse of what we have in SASUKE. And some of the obstacles were actually far more difficult than their SASUKE counterparts (ex: Enchu Nori vs Balance Tank). KUNOICHI 2001's Stage 1 in general I would argue was harder than SASUKE 19 mostly because each obstacle required near perfect execution and timing with a time limit that didn't really allow much of that. Not that 19 had a lenient time limit either, but it felt like it had more wiggle room for error compared to K2001.

I don't know if I'm alone in this boat, but I personally found the reboot a bit of a let down since most of it was just copied from SASUKE and toned down which really defeated the purpose of making it feel unique. And the few new obstacles we got were pretty underwhelming. Fish Bone is inoffensive at it can still take you out should you rush it, but then we get the Slide Walk which ended up creating the Ring Slider. IMO neither one was that interesting to watch, and that weird tackle ball thing that I just wasn't too fond of, oh and let's not forget the Pipe Hold which I think needs no explanation as to why people hate it. And in the case of 10 and 11 we get nerfed Double Pendulums and Dragon Gliders where pretty much every fail amounted to the trampoline jump and it just felt really underwhelming.

By saying that Kunoichi 2001’s Stage 1 is harder than Sasuke 19’s you’re effectively saying that it’s harder than any Sasuke Stage 1 we’ve ever seen, which it’s just not. In fact it’s still a hell of a lot easier than a lot of the Stage 1s we’ve seen. Like yes the Buyoishi and Tornado Run were fairly tricky but you can’t compare that to the Flying Chute, Dragon Glider, Warped Wall, or even earlier obstacles like the Rolling Log and Jump Hang. I’d say it’s difficulty is maybe comparable to the current Stage 1 assuming the Dragon Glider didn’t exist.

Sure, if Sasuke 40’s Stage 1 just happens to be the exact same as K2001 then we will see maybe a few shock fails due to most competitors not really practicing balance, but we’d honestly probably get like 20+ clears. I can’t really think of anyone who’d have trouble with any of the obstacles, with the exception of maybe Matsuda or Shingo who seem to screw up no matter what.

Mind you, I would actually like to see more balance obstacles in Stage 1, especially in the first half.

[subtleagent]

I guess I just feel difficulty doesn't exactly equate to physically hard. K1 was tricky and remember Domino Hill in Indonesia in 2017 took out all of Team Japan (including Morimoto) bar Nagasaki and even Drew as well. It just gives me suspicion that they aren't as adept to balance obstacles.