Is Success at an Early Age a Curse?

[m4tt3r0x]

And if so, why?

We can name some notable competitors who at an early age (about late teens to mid twenties) started and seemed to peak performance wise: Shunsuke, Ryo, Kanno, Kouji, and I'd also perhaps argue Shingo and Akiyama to a certain extent.

Contrarily I've noticed that it is more common for competitors who began competing a bit later in life (around in their late twenties to early or mid thirties) to have more consistent and elongated careers on the show: Yuuji, Lee Enchi, Hioki, Tomo, Nagano, and Okuyama. Jun Sato and Kong likewise returned to the show after a hiatus and their results have been/were thoroughly impressive.

An exception to this theory is obviously Morimoto, although he is still relatively young, as he's not even 30 just yet. I would have put Asa on the second list had he not injured himself.

The first 6 early bloomers I listed all had a Final Stage attempt by the age of 26 the latest in Akiyama's case.

How do you explain this? Is this a phenomenon seen across other sports you watch?


My 2 cents is that it seems to me that too high of achievement at an early age either takes away rewarding incentive to match that achievement later on in life or mentally blocks a person from matching that same young success regardless of their own volition. Additionally if this pattern holds any weight it would be a good indicator for current competitors' futures today. The 2 current Black Tigers started competing in their late twenties and have yet to swipe a Final Stage attempt, although I'm mostly focusing on Yoshiyuki Yamamoto.

[Kane-Not-Kosugi]

Unless they're in their 40s, it really has served to come down to skill and the competitors' ability to keep up with the evolving course. Not really much else to say on that. And of course, Akiyama's eye condition.

[m4tt3r0x]

To add on to my original post, I'll say that it's quite possible that when you're at that early of an age that you don't have the rest of life's obligations weighing you down as much like making a family or developing some type of a career. After training and blazing on the course like a fiend when they're young, I think those very same competitors have the rest of life catch up to them later on. I think Shunsuke is a prime example of this. On the other hand when you're already more established and mature in life perhaps it is much more easily manageable to balance training for the show while also staying on top of the rest of life. Another variable to this is probably that since most of the older rookies I listed didn't ever win early on, they had more of an incentive to consistently get far in many subsequent Sasukes following their debuts. Nagano conversely got his win and then slowly lost a heart for the show as years progressed.

There's also something to just be said about success versus love of/persistence on the show. Yusuke and Yuuji are two of the most devoted competitors and I think the longevity of their success is the fruit of that. They both likewise quash the stereotypes I'm pointing out here, as they both achieved the highest success possible early on in their careers and matched it again years later on.

To Kane's post, I don't think some competitors are just all physically more gifted at adapting over time while others aren't. For example Yuuji and Ryo are of very similar statures and skill predispositions, but Yuuji persisted while Ryo really stopped trying later on. In just the last tournament Ryo looked pretty out of shape physically for his own standard. Kanno's a very skilled gymnast and he can't beat the Dragon Glider after two attempts while Hioki who comes off as more unassuming has bested it 4/4 times, and his results early on in his career were often inferior to Kanno's.

[Kane-Not-Kosugi]

In response to your response to me, in that case age isn't a factor. It's skill and also effort (e.g. Yuuji and Ryo). I can name a lot of Ninjas not only in SASUKE but from around the world who hit their late 30s and early 40s who are still absolute beasts because they put the effort in to train for it. So again, don't think age matters much until they're like 50 or something

[m4tt3r0x]

May 2, 2021 18:11:38 GMT -5 Kane-Not-Kosugi said:

In response to your response to me, in that case age isn't a factor. It's skill and also effort (e.g. Yuuji and Ryo). I can name a lot of Ninjas not only in SASUKE but from around the world who hit their late 30s and early 40s who are still absolute beasts because they put the effort in to train for it. So again, don't think age matters much until they're like 50 or something

You missed the entire point of the thread then. I said those who didn't begin with a surge of success before their mid twenties or so statistically went on to compete consistently with good longevity like Yuuji or Okuyama--that's in agreement with what you just said. But I'm saying there's an obvious correlation between decline in skill and early massive success. Doesn't mean that's the determining factor, but that's the question of the thread: Why did those who succeeded early turn out to be the ones unskilled later on in a shorter amount of time.

[Kane-Not-Kosugi]

May 2, 2021 18:48:43 GMT -5 m4tt3r0x said:

May 2, 2021 18:11:38 GMT -5 Kane-Not-Kosugi said:

In response to your response to me, in that case age isn't a factor. It's skill and also effort (e.g. Yuuji and Ryo). I can name a lot of Ninjas not only in SASUKE but from around the world who hit their late 30s and early 40s who are still absolute beasts because they put the effort in to train for it. So again, don't think age matters much until they're like 50 or something

You missed the entire point of the thread then. I said those who didn't begin with a surge of success before their mid twenties or so statistically went on to compete consistently with good longevity like Yuuji or Okuyama--that's in agreement with what you just said. But I'm saying there's an obvious correlation between decline in skill and early massive success. Doesn't mean that's the determining factor, but that's the question of the thread: Why did those who succeeded early turn out to be the ones unskilled later on in a shorter amount of time.

Then you missed the point of my first response where I said age doesn't matter and it comes down to how the competitors handle the evolving course. That comes down to skill, experience, and effort, as I said before. Didn't miss nothin, you just don't like that I invalidated the age aspect of it.

[Paragus]

May 2, 2021 20:12:12 GMT -5 Kane-Not-Kosugi said:

May 2, 2021 18:48:43 GMT -5 m4tt3r0x said:

You missed the entire point of the thread then. I said those who didn't begin with a surge of success before their mid twenties or so statistically went on to compete consistently with good longevity like Yuuji or Okuyama--that's in agreement with what you just said. But I'm saying there's an obvious correlation between decline in skill and early massive success. Doesn't mean that's the determining factor, but that's the question of the thread: Why did those who succeeded early turn out to be the ones unskilled later on in a shorter amount of time.

Then you missed the point of my first response where I said age doesn't matter and it comes down to how the competitors handle the evolving course. That comes down to skill, experience, and effort, as I said before. Didn't miss nothin, you just don't like that I invalidated the age aspect of it.

If that's the case, then why are the older guys so much better adapting to course changes? We've definitely seen more young stars than old ones come out of nowhere and dominate the course, then almost immediately fizzle out. Could it be like, a mindset kind of thing?

[Kane-Not-Kosugi]

May 2, 2021 21:30:42 GMT -5 Paragus said:

May 2, 2021 20:12:12 GMT -5 Kane-Not-Kosugi said:

Then you missed the point of my first response where I said age doesn't matter and it comes down to how the competitors handle the evolving course. That comes down to skill, experience, and effort, as I said before. Didn't miss nothin, you just don't like that I invalidated the age aspect of it.

If that's the case, then why are the older guys so much better adapting to course changes? We've definitely seen more young stars than old ones come out of nowhere and dominate the course, then almost immediately fizzle out. Could it be like, a mindset kind of thing?

I would say it's a mindset as well as an experience thing. If their mind is in it, they'll still obviously have the passion for it and train/put in the work. Even then I definitely think it varies by the individual. If some people weren't trained with the mindset to keep trying after failing over and over, they're not gonna improve and possibly might not return, regardless of age. The older guys that have stuck around (Yuuji, Kanno, and the All Stars) have been still working hard knowing that failing is the name of the game of SASUKE 99% of the time. Throw a kid in a place where the results come completely down to the individual's skill and desire to get better and it's really up in the air on whether or not they'll keep at the SASUKE training or not.

Idk, with SASUKE I would say you're right on the money Paragus. Mindset, cuz that's what shapes skills and effort and makes people want to stay and keep training, giving them more experience and allowing them to improve over time, regardless of age. In something like SASUKE where there's no guaranteed winner, it can be easy for people to decide to say "I'm never gonna do it, I'll tap out" and at that point I think it comes down to how much the person cares about SASUKE and how strong their work ethic is. Easier to stick around in sports where there's always a winner and loser, y'know?

[tns8597]

Several issues with this statement.

Firstly the sample size of competitors where we can do an 'early vs. old' age comparison, specifically competitors who've competed consistently over a tenure of 10 years where they first competed before the age of 25, are way too small to deduce any conclusive statements. There's literally half of the All-Stars (Shiratori, Yamada and Nagano didn’t compete in their mid twenties), and some of the Shin-Sedai.

Secondly, in the case of every single competitor that you could argue 'peaked too early', there is always reasonable explanation for it unrelated to age. In many cases, it's because when the competitor was younger, the course was easier, and when a renewal/buff does come around, the competitor doesn't have the raw skill to keep up; key examples of this are Shingo and Akiyama, the former with Shin-Sasuke and the latter with Sasuke 5 onwards. Then all of the other 'early bloomers' you mentioned there's an explanation as to why they're not doing as well now as when they were younger. Kanno and Shingo suffered debilitating shoulder injuries that had immediate effects on their performance, Ryo just stopped caring after he was robbed of Kanzen by Yusuke, and then Kouji hadn't really competed enough to make a conclusion. He did well from Sasuke 24-27, had a blip in 28, then would've made Stage 3 in 29 had it not been for the ridiculous Stage 2; I'm certain he would've been a force to be reckoned with had he kept competing. Even Shunsuke you can make a case him competing at a high level both in the Nagano and post-Rising era, given that he's made Stage 3 three times since his return; he's only recently started to suck and we know that's because of his waning passion for Sasuke in favour of family.

Thirdly, I feel like the examples of late bloomers you've provided are questionable. We don't know how a lot of these guys would've done if they'd competed when younger, specifically Lee and Okuyama. The others obviously did considerably worse during the pre-Rising era, either failing Stage 1 or failing to qualify at all, but you could attribute that to experience rather than age. Guys like Hioki, Tomo, and Yuuji only really got into Sasuke (as in to the point where they were starting to compete) when they were in their mid-20s, whereas now they're 10-15 years deep into training so of course they'd compete at a much higher level; again this is down to experience rather than age, as the difference in natural athleticism between 25 and 35 isn't significant enough to be negated by years of specific training. The outcome would've been the same in the case of age 15 vs. 25 years old. 

Finally I feel like (no offence intended) you've kind of cherry-picked a fair number of these comparisons. You outlined Jun Sato as someone who's been a 'late bloomer' and Kanno an 'early bloomer'. Jun is arguably at his current peak at age 29, about the same age that Kanno was at his (he made the Final Stage a few years beforehand but he was arguably more successful in his late 20s as he consistently made Stage 3). You could even argue that Shunsuke reached his peak in his late 20s, as he was reaching Stage 3 on a much much tougher course than when he was 18-19. For all we know Jun could suddenly tank within the next couple of years, and if so his track record would be far more in line with guys like Ryo and Kanno than Hioki. Jun also enjoyed relative success in his late teens so whatever ‘curse’ there would be doesn’t apply to him. Overall I just feel like there's some overlap and double standards in the initial comparisons you made; open to debate though.

[m4tt3r0x]

May 2, 2021 20:12:12 GMT -5 Kane-Not-Kosugi said:

May 2, 2021 18:48:43 GMT -5 m4tt3r0x said:

You missed the entire point of the thread then. I said those who didn't begin with a surge of success before their mid twenties or so statistically went on to compete consistently with good longevity like Yuuji or Okuyama--that's in agreement with what you just said. But I'm saying there's an obvious correlation between decline in skill and early massive success. Doesn't mean that's the determining factor, but that's the question of the thread: Why did those who succeeded early turn out to be the ones unskilled later on in a shorter amount of time.

Then you missed the point of my first response where I said age doesn't matter and it comes down to how the competitors handle the evolving course. That comes down to skill, experience, and effort, as I said before. Didn't miss nothin, you just don't like that I invalidated the age aspect of it.

You didn't invalidate the age aspect on account of you not even addressing why it seems the first set of examples I listed all coincidentally fizzled out after their early success. You just said that age doesn't become a factor until someone's well past middle age as if that wasn't obvious. If you think it's an unfounded observation (large early success correlated with lack of effort/trend of failure later on), then I'd expect you to back up why, which I asked for in the OP anyway (but apparently I wouldn't like that). Plus I already said earlier that someone like Yusuke breaks this particular mold, but that doesn't really matter much anyway. Of course skill and adaptation are what keep a competitor relevant across time, but that's not the question--it's why do some competitors keep training for that skill (the factor you claimed as paramount in your second post) while others don't, and why do I see so many "early bloomers" falling in the latter category?

Ryo and Kouji definitely stopped training for little good reason, and we know their reasons. Kanno of course had his injuries, but I actually think people overestimate how much of an effect that's had on his recent performance. He did continue to train early on in Sasuke Rising, so it's true he succeeded then because he put in the effort like Kane said in that regard. But he doesn't train like Yuuji, Hioki, or Yusuke now and honestly he didn't really back in Sasuke Rising territory either other than for the Cliffhanger. He was always body building. He does still love Sasuke though, and you could argue even his results early on were a grab bag of successes and mess-ups. Shunsuke also is not the livewire he was back when he was young. He does still try, but it's a clear qualitative difference. It's not a coincidence to me that Kanno and Shunsuke train separately from the others. There are other lesser known names I could list, like some of the insanely talented young Cliffers who got demoralized as the course changed.

[m4tt3r0x]

May 3, 2021 4:47:54 GMT -5 tns8597 said:

Several issues with this statement.

Firstly the sample size of competitors where we can do an 'early vs. old' age comparison, specifically competitors who've competed consistently over a tenure of 10 years where they first competed before the age of 25, are way too small to deduce any conclusive statements. There's literally half of the All-Stars (Shiratori, Yamada and Nagano didn’t compete in their mid twenties), and some of the Shin-Sedai.

Secondly, in the case of every single competitor that you could argue 'peaked too early', there is always reasonable explanation for it unrelated to age. In many cases, it's because when the competitor was younger, the course was easier, and when a renewal/buff does come around, the competitor doesn't have the raw skill to keep up; key examples of this are Shingo and Akiyama, the former with Shin-Sasuke and the latter with Sasuke 5 onwards. Then all of the other 'early bloomers' you mentioned there's an explanation as to why they're not doing as well now as when they were younger. Kanno and Shingo suffered debilitating shoulder injuries that had immediate effects on their performance, Ryo just stopped caring after he was robbed of Kanzen by Yusuke, and then Kouji hadn't really competed enough to make a conclusion. He did well from Sasuke 24-27, had a blip in 28, then would've made Stage 3 in 29 had it not been for the ridiculous Stage 2; I'm certain he would've been a force to be reckoned with had he kept competing. Even Shunsuke you can make a case him competing at a high level both in the Nagano and post-Rising era, given that he's made Stage 3 three times since his return; he's only recently started to suck and we know that's because of his waning passion for Sasuke in favour of family.

Thirdly, I feel like the examples of late bloomers you've provided are questionable. We don't know how a lot of these guys would've done if they'd competed when younger, specifically Lee and Okuyama. The others obviously did considerably worse during the pre-Rising era, either failing Stage 1 or failing to qualify at all, but you could attribute that to experience rather than age. Guys like Hioki, Tomo, and Yuuji only really got into Sasuke (as in to the point where they were starting to compete) when they were in their mid-20s, whereas now they're 10-15 years deep into training so of course they'd compete at a much higher level; again this is down to experience rather than age, as the difference in natural athleticism between 25 and 35 isn't significant enough to be negated by years of specific training. The outcome would've been the same in the case of age 15 vs. 25 years old. 

Finally I feel like (no offence intended) you've kind of cherry-picked a fair number of these comparisons. You outlined Jun Sato as someone who's been a 'late bloomer' and Kanno an 'early bloomer'. Jun is arguably at his current peak at age 29, about the same age that Kanno was at his (he made the Final Stage a few years beforehand but he was arguably more successful in his late 20s as he consistently made Stage 3). You could even argue that Shunsuke reached his peak in his late 20s, as he was reaching Stage 3 on a much much tougher course than when he was 18-19. For all we know Jun could suddenly tank within the next couple of years, and if so his track record would be far more in line with guys like Ryo and Kanno than Hioki. Jun also enjoyed relative success in his late teens so whatever ‘curse’ there would be doesn’t apply to him. Overall I just feel like there's some overlap and double standards in the initial comparisons you made; open to debate though.

One of the most important takeaways I got from these refutations is that the age divisions I made have some arbitrariness to them and I completely don't deny that, as they weren't exactly what I was focusing on anyway. The question has more to do with why guys who either started competing past around their mid twenties (but this is openly arbitrary), after having become more established as human beings in general like Yuuji, Hioki, and Tomo seem to be much more resilient at being long term players than others. Sato being an outlier as he returned at 24 is sort of irrelevant to me, as he never came close to Stage 3 during Shin Sasuke and he does resemble much more to me like a guy who never came close to reaching his full potential too early. He didn't really become a serious contender against the Cliffhanger until toward his late twenties anyway.

I don't think the sample size is too small either. Shingo and Takeda both tanked after their mid thirties and both started competing in their early/mid twenties. Hioki and Tomo are almost complete opposites to this, as they're both about 40 today and are essentially ambassadors of the show still. I think there are multiple factors to this particular example like the All Stars' life changes at the time of their down spiral, which plays to my original point, but it's fair to say Shingo and Takeda quite bluntly just aren't that good.
Most importantly to me, I think there is a sufficient number of other cases as well though that play into the idea that there's a reason why established guys in life maintain longevity while people's whose lives were completely up in the air (Takeda, Shingo, Yamada, Akiyama, all of the Shin Sedai except Yuuji) likewise have inconsistent results on the course or difficulties keeping up with it to begin with. Bunpei, Nagano, Hioki, Yuuji, and for the most part Tomo all seem to be very stable in their personal lives. Also Hashimoto Kouji is another good example I think you're overlooking. He was an absolute beast before he was even anywhere close to what is considered prime age and just completely dropped out like Ryo or Kanno (now in his 30s, I don't think Kanno trains much and I also think people overestimate how much his injuries had to do with that). The question is why do they relinquish their will seemingly so early on.

Now the good point that you mention is that the course was arguably easier back when a lot of the names I mentioned succeeded, and that's a fair criticism of Shunsuke, but I think that's also debatable in terms of course difficulty. Obviously Stage 3 is insanely harder, but the other first two don't know about. Either way it's just very hard to judge something like that because at the time the standard was set differently back in early Sasuke and everything was new to people. The course today is largely just recycled old obstacles anyway.

I don't think it's coincidence someone like Ryo got demoralized after USA Vs Japan while Hioki, Tomo, and Yuuji didn't. There are more young guy examples perhaps, like Naoyi Tajima to some of the other very talented Cliffers or young trial guys who just disappeared and fell off the face of the earth, never ever trying to compete again (although there are counter examples, but the Morimoto Sedai sure aren't great ones). You can say there are other ulterior factors to this but that's really the point: I think the idea that's being overlooked in general is that I'm not blaming competitors' down spirals on a magical number, as obviously competitors don't just peak at around 23 let's say and start physically deteriorating or something by 33, but the factors associated with those particular ages.

Ultimately it was just a strange observation I noticed. I've seen similar instances among Olympians. In more traditional sports it's probably not gonna overlap, but those are usually professional athletes and follow more in line with someone like Yusuke's spirit.

[tns8597]

I think in Shingo and Takeda's case there were multiple factors that contributed to their downward spiral. Both had debilitating injuries that almost immediately caused them to decline, otherwise they would've very possibly been competing at as high a level, if not higher into their 30s. Takeda especially was arguably at his strongest at the age of 33-34 given that he made it deep into Stage 3 multiple times in Shin-Sasuke, and took down the harder version of the obstacle that had plagued him when he was in his late 20s (I'm of course referring to the Cliffhanger). What really caused Takeda's downward spiral was his hiatus which is more attributed to a lack of training than anything else. And in Shingo's case, I've always been an advocate of the idea that Shin-Sasuke's Stage 1 simply brought out his athletic limitations; whether he was 23-24 or the age he was I don't think this would've been any different. Again I don't think this has anything to do with age, rather him being a victim of circumstance. Basically, I don't think in either case their early success had anything to do with this, rather times moved on and for one reason or another they couldn't keep up, and I don't think age really had any part to play in this until both hit 40.

I think what you're perhaps eluding to (and forgive me if I'm mistaken) is the idea of maturity associated with those ages. Guys like Hioki and Yuuji are motivated by their families and that's perhaps what drives them to continue competing at a high level, whereas the younger Shin-Sedai (especially Kanno and Ryo) I felt like they were trying to do well to simply prove something to themselves and most importantly to others as well. When you're younger you're far more self-conscious about what people think about you and require external validation, but in most cases once you've got that external validation there's nothing really left to push you as you've 'made your mark'. That's why it's commonly known that guys who go to the gym just to look good, when they end up getting told how good they look they start to slack and give up as they've achieved what they wanted: that external validation. This is definitely true but I can't really think of any competitor it applies to. Kanno I think would've still been competing at a high level had he not been injured and he is still passionate about Sasuke (his post-Sasuke 37 run being evidence of this) but just doesn't have the capacity to train much anymore due to recurring injuries, and Ryo I think almost rage quit; he missed his chance at Kanzen twice, and in both cases got robbed by the next to attempt that Final Stage (Yuuji and Yusuke, respectively). First time he didn't mind as much because he went from being zero to hero regardless, but failing Stage 1 in the tournament where he was expected to win it all above anyone else (literally, he wore #100) and seeing Yusuke achieve what he never could I think got too much for him. That, combined with the almost impossible Stage 3 renewal, I think just caused him to accept that he wasn't going to win and so he sort of shut himself off from the sport for that reason. Whether this would've been different had he been more mature and had a wife and kids to convince him to keep training, I don't know. Shunsuke I suppose is a good example of this but he never struck me as someone who was as die-hard for Sasuke as Ryo or Kanno; I mean the guy literally took 6 years off, but he is settling down with his family and career and I suppose his kids are too young to understand or actively motivate him to keep competing.

The reason I mention this idea of family and maturity is that Hioki actively mentioned that his performances started improving when he started his family as he felt like he actually had something and someone to fight for, rather than simply doing it for self-validation. Let's also not forget Yuuji almost retired and had he done so wouldn't have been such a good case for your argument. Tomo I think maturity definitely was a factor; he's made his way up in life in the last 10 years as he's moved away from his delinquent youth years/rebelling against his family to actively trying to bring his family back together. That's the difference between a teenager/someone in their early 20s and a grown man.

Anyway, I'm babbling on now; let me know your thoughts on the above....

[subtleagent]

I think it has more to do with their mental state. Take Nagano for example. By 31 it was clear he was done with it, he'd already won and delivered a few really amazing performances. He'd basically run his course as a competitor and was ready to retire, not to mention he was 44 by the time he did. It's not like he didn't hold up pretty well

In the case of people like Yuuji we see he went through a stint of failing Stage 1 from 31 ~ 35 with 34 being the only exception. But I feel in his case it was more mental issues. He seems to have bounced back in 34 and has found his passion again. Making Stage 3 in 36 and 37 as well as being one second from clearing what was probably one of the hardest Stage 2s in recent years (at 42 no less). I think Yuuji's become less likely to kanzen as he used to, but I think he has a slim chance of making the Final again (which he likely would have had he not Tajima'd the Pipe Slider).

In Yamada's case it was more both. His mental state was weaker in his prime and his physical state deteriorated combined with him never really adapting to the course changes. Granted he did have a few good runs such as 16, 17, 18, 23, 24, 27, 28 and apparently 30 despite being up there in age. But most of his failures were on the Warped Wall which really ended up being his kryptonite and he was always a slower competitor. He was definitely too invested in the show as we know and that ended up harming him more than it helped him. So with Yamada a lot of things were taken into account, but yes age definitely hit him and hit him hard. While say Shingo was hit earlier in his career, Yamada's decline was definitely harder since Shingo was still getting to Stage 3 despite digressing on it badly (Shingo's last real chance at Kanzenseiha IMO being 11, maybe 12).

[m4tt3r0x]

May 3, 2021 11:39:30 GMT -5 tns8597 said:

I think in Shingo and Takeda's case there were multiple factors that contributed to their downward spiral. Both had debilitating injuries that almost immediately caused them to decline, otherwise they would've very possibly been competing at as high a level, if not higher into their 30s. Takeda especially was arguably at his strongest at the age of 33-34 given that he made it deep into Stage 3 multiple times in Shin-Sasuke, and took down the harder version of the obstacle that had plagued him when he was in his late 20s (I'm of course referring to the Cliffhanger). What really caused Takeda's downward spiral was his hiatus which is more attributed to a lack of training than anything else. And in Shingo's case, I've always been an advocate of the idea that Shin-Sasuke's Stage 1 simply brought out his athletic limitations; whether he was 23-24 or the age he was I don't think this would've been any different. Again I don't think this has anything to do with age, rather him being a victim of circumstance. Basically, I don't think in either case their early success had anything to do with this, rather times moved on and for one reason or another they couldn't keep up, and I don't think age really had any part to play in this until both hit 40.

I think what you're perhaps eluding to (and forgive me if I'm mistaken) is the idea of maturity associated with those ages. Guys like Hioki and Yuuji are motivated by their families and that's perhaps what drives them to continue competing at a high level, whereas the younger Shin-Sedai (especially Kanno and Ryo) I felt like they were trying to do well to simply prove something to themselves and most importantly to others as well. When you're younger you're far more self-conscious about what people think about you and require external validation, but in most cases once you've got that external validation there's nothing really left to push you as you've 'made your mark'. That's why it's commonly known that guys who go to the gym just to look good, when they end up getting told how good they look they start to slack and give up as they've achieved what they wanted: that external validation. This is definitely true but I can't really think of any competitor it applies to. Kanno I think would've still been competing at a high level had he not been injured and he is still passionate about Sasuke (his post-Sasuke 37 run being evidence of this) but just doesn't have the capacity to train much anymore due to recurring injuries, and Ryo I think almost rage quit; he missed his chance at Kanzen twice, and in both cases got robbed by the next to attempt that Final Stage (Yuuji and Yusuke, respectively). First time he didn't mind as much because he went from being zero to hero regardless, but failing Stage 1 in the tournament where he was expected to win it all above anyone else (literally, he wore #100) and seeing Yusuke achieve what he never could I think got too much for him. That, combined with the almost impossible Stage 3 renewal, I think just caused him to accept that he wasn't going to win and so he sort of shut himself off from the sport for that reason. Whether this would've been different had he been more mature and had a wife and kids to convince him to keep training, I don't know. Shunsuke I suppose is a good example of this but he never struck me as someone who was as die-hard for Sasuke as Ryo or Kanno; I mean the guy literally took 6 years off, but he is settling down with his family and career and I suppose his kids are too young to understand or actively motivate him to keep competing.

The reason I mention this idea of family and maturity is that Hioki actively mentioned that his performances started improving when he started his family as he felt like he actually had something and someone to fight for, rather than simply doing it for self-validation. Let's also not forget Yuuji almost retired and had he done so wouldn't have been such a good case for your argument. Tomo I think maturity definitely was a factor; he's made his way up in life in the last 10 years as he's moved away from his delinquent youth years/rebelling against his family to actively trying to bring his family back together. That's the difference between a teenager/someone in their early 20s and a grown man.

Anyway, I'm babbling on now; let me know your thoughts on the above....

Yep, that was mostly what I was alluding to indeed. I agree with pretty much everything, but remember that Yuuji really started to shine again after meeting his current wife.

I was mostly spit balling originally, but I think there's definitely some truth to this idea. Of course not everything is so black or white, but incentive is often the determining factor for why anyone tries to achieve a particular goal, and I think it was often the case that young guys went in to strut their stuff and then checked out early for something else. Not uncommon universally, I think 98% of players in the NCAA end up changing their sport after their start. But yeah, incentive. Quite often is the case when some guy in baseball gets drafted to another team for a ginormous new salary and his batting average tanks. And a different player trying to make his start works his butt off for the same position and does exponentially better.