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Post by dakohosu on Sept 29, 2021 14:45:40 GMT -5
Which tournaments do you think are the most underrated or overrated?
For me, underrated: - Sasuke 16: a lot of people hate on this tournament for being a kind of ‘nothing’ tournament being the third consecutive Stage 3 ending, but I actually thought there was a lot to like. A cool, if slightly too easy Stage 1, a dramatic Stage 2, and Stage 3 was really heterogeneous in terms of competitors and results with Kong’s return, and Koji Yamada and Bunpei finally reaching the Pipe Slider. - Sasuke 22: a lot of people don’t like this tournament because no All-Stars cleared but I think it was a nice change to see a completely new and unproven group of competitors reaching Stages 2 and 3, and of course Yuuji’s breakout run. The editing was questionable but not that bad compared to recent tournaments. - Sasuke 25: Again, a lot of people don’t like this tournament and not sure why. Stage 1 was a nice retro theme, Stage 2 was meh except for the DSL but Stage 3 I still maintain was the best we’ve seen of all time. Not impossible like Sasuke 32-34 and the rest of the stage actually felt sufficiently balanced rather than almost every result coming down to a Cliffhanger jump. The obstacles were also so creative as well and defo under-utilised. - Sasuke 37: this tournament had a huge number of shock factors that I felt were just missing from recent tournaments. I was disappointed after Stages 1 and 2 but I was really on the edge of my seat for Stages 3 and of course the Live Final. A lot of people hate on the fact that the Cliffhanger Dimension was nerfed but honestly it never needed to be there anyway. Stage 2 sucked though I’ll give them that; did not need to be toned down just because Yusuke failed Stage 1
Overrated; - Sasuke 27: a lot of people like this tournament because there was a Kanzen but I honestly compare this to 26 in that the editing was awful and so many runs were shown out of order. It also took a lot of the excitement out of the tournament knowing that the entire course was nerfed just to facilitate a total victory. - Sasuke 38: another tournament I think is overrated just because someone won. Stage 1 was too drawn out because of an easy first half and they really took the piss with joke competitors this time round. Stage 2 was awesome, but Stages 3 and 4 were probably the most boring in any live tournament I’ve watched. The results were 100% predictable from a mile away which made the victory so anticlimactic. Yusuke won, Sato failed the Cliffhanger, Tada got digested this basically confirming he was going to fail Stage 3 - what a f***ing surprise.
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zoran
Jessie Graff
Posts: 1,015
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Post by zoran on Sept 29, 2021 14:59:29 GMT -5
Underrated: 11,16,21,30,37
Overrated: 5
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Post by dakohosu on Sept 29, 2021 16:17:54 GMT -5
Agree with 5 tbh.
I think people get hyped over the fact that it was the first bloodbath of a tournament and the debut of some iconic obstacles, but except for the Jump Hang and Soritatsu Kabe I really didn’t find the rest of the ‘overhaul’ anything dramatic or special, certainly nothing compared to that of Shin-Sasuke’s (specifically 19, 18 cut a lot of corners which were addressed in 19).
Also the fact that Shingo almost cleared a ‘new’ Stage 3 in its introductory tournament confirmed that corners were cut in some places in 5 as well.
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Post by wrestlingfan55 on Sept 29, 2021 19:13:01 GMT -5
I'm glad 11 was mentioned as underrated. One of the easiest tournaments to watch.
I think 32 is quite underrated, but that's mainly due to the shocking editing decisions- most notably, leaving out Nagano's retirement speech after Stage 1.
I don't think 22 is underrated. I recall people enjoying the complete flip from 21. It also helped set up 23, an even more amazing tournament. Maybe it's become increasingly underrated (or underappreciated) with time. 22-24 was Shin Sasuke at its peak.
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Post by subtleagent on Sept 29, 2021 20:19:44 GMT -5
Overrated: 31, 36, 38.
Underrated: 7, 14, 21, 25, 32, 35
Please understand that I don't hate Morimoto (in fact it's quite the opposite), but man the spoiling of his Kanzens really dampened those tournaments for me, especially 38 with all the problems it had.
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Post by dakohosu on Sept 30, 2021 5:04:01 GMT -5
subtleagent yeah definitely.
31 I think was a great tournament, bar some questionable editing (like cutting clears without acknowledging them until the end of the stage). Stage 1's revamp was one of the best we've seen and the results were really exciting seeing both a mix of rookies and returning veterans doing really well as well as some of the most hyped competitors failing Stage 1 (like Yuuji and Ryo). But the spoiling of Yusuke's Kanzen (given that he was the only Final Stage attempt) was really a negative that I couldn't forgive.
36 I also really enjoyed as we saw loads of breakout and redemption runs, especially after 35 where a lot of people thought that the Shin-Sedai were done, but Yusuke once again being the only Stage 3 clear was a really disappointing and entirely predictable end to the tournament imo; it would've been so much more exciting had Ryo and/or Yuuji cleared as well, as though the Final would be a sort of 'new vs. old' generation battle. I actually preferred 37 because there was so much more of a shock factor to the results in general.
14 was also one that I forgot to mention; for some reason a lot of people think that the buffs to Stage 3 were unnecessary but how is that the case when Nagano reached the Final Stage three times in a row? I thought the extension of the back half of Stage 3 was one of the most tasteful and appropriate buffs we've ever seen, and imo this was the point at which Stage 3 really consolidated itself as the most brutal stage. The results were also really heterogeneous seeing a mix of rookies, All-Stars, and other veterans reaching Stages 2 and 3.
Not sure I agree with 32 though; I can forgive the poor editing decisions but the tournament was just a mess from start to finish. The dampness on Stage 1 which caused a load of fails that weren't given re-runs, increasing Stage 2's time limit by 25 seconds resulting in a 100% clear rate which is unacceptable for a renewal, and Stage 3 also being plagued by rain. It's hard to enjoy a tournament knowing that majority of the results weren't the fault of the competitors but of the dreadful organization.
Another OVERRATED tournament I'd add is 13; not that this has ever been ranked among the greatest tournaments of all time but I'm surprised at how no one mentions how the hopes for this tournament after 12 would've been so high but just nothing happened. Course changes were really underwhelming, and the results were worse on pretty much identical stages. Easily one of the most anticlimactic and disappointing tournaments imo.
I was also going to add 33 as well but it seems as though a lot of people hate this tournament too lol.
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Post by subtleagent on Sept 30, 2021 14:30:05 GMT -5
I actually thought 14 was pretty impressive in it matched the amount of Stage 3 attempts 12 had on a tougher course. To think we would've had 11 Stage 3 attempts if Paul Hamm had hit the button in Stage 2. Also it (like you said) rectified 13's lack of change that really dampened the tournament.
Yes, Shinji and Nagano were the only ones to beat the Cliffhanger which was a smidge disappointing, but I can forgive it since Yamaguchi and Ishikawa were novices so there wasn't much to expect from them (though getting to Stage 3 at all was pretty impressive), Shingo and Iketani were on their infamous Stage 3 declines, Masaaki and Asaoka clearly weren't training as much as they did before (be it loss of interest or just not having time in the day to do it anymore or both even), and finally Takeda was injured and it was a winter tournament (which I suspect may have had a factor on his injury in this tournament. 16 was a winter tournament and his shoulder was clearly bugging him after he beat Stage 2). Honestly just for seeing Shinji fresh off of two Jump Hang failures almost beat the revamped Stage 3, that was pretty epic in and of itself (shame he was never really consistent).
Personally, I still believe the Grinding Ring in 21 was intentional (Hatsuta could be heard calling saying "Nagano! Final Ring!") since why in the bloody hell would they not fix such a simple thing to fix after 4 tournaments? It was one rail, it couldn't have been THAT hard to make the ring glide (then again it was apparently hard to keep the Stick Slider even so who knows?) and it was clear by the time 22 rolled around they were desperate for a clear lest the ratings fall further, so the Gliding Ring came into play. I'm told the same for the Sending Climber in that it would've been impossible due to the rocks being footholds instead of handholds (not sure how it's a safety hazard since you fall into the water anyway, but clearly it would've been impossible), so that one I can understand being changed to the Hang Climbing (even if I feel they went too far in nerfing it). All that in mind, I was actually content with 21's ending since Shin-SASUKE's Stage 3 wasn't exactly that difficult and after 21 it essentially came down to the Shin-Cliffhanger in that once you beat it you essentially were guaranteed a clear (the only failures beyond it from 22 ~ 24 were Takeda, Tajima, Kongu, Kanno, and Okuyama and even then 3 of those 5 beat the Stage in their following attempts with one of the two who didn't only failing due to an oversight [Tajima]).
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Post by dakohosu on Sept 30, 2021 15:33:23 GMT -5
Yeah another positive of 14 was that it was nice to see someone else take centre stage rather than Nagano going the furthest for a fourth time in a row.
Also I’m not so sure about the ring thing. My main argument against your point is that if it was intentional then why was the track angled downwards? If you were meant to slide it yourself then surely it’d be straight like the Pipe Slider was. I think the obstacle was always meant to slide down and may well have done in tournaments 18-20 had someone got there; maybe they just forgot to oil the track in 21 to make it slick, maybe they used a defective track. Who knows? But they wouldn’t have angled it downwards if you were meant to slide the ring yourself imo.
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Post by darthvaderlim on Oct 2, 2021 15:36:22 GMT -5
For me, the most underrated tournament would be 9. It introduced iconic Stage 3 obstacles, like the Rumbling Dice, Cliffhanger Kai. It also had Yamada's duct tape fail, Nagano's breakout run and Bunpei's debut. Though the results mostly stagnated compared to 7 and 8.
For overrated, I'd say probably 17, 27, 36, and 38.
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Post by salt on Oct 2, 2021 23:45:08 GMT -5
Agree with 5 tbh. I think people get hyped over the fact that it was the first bloodbath of a tournament and the debut of some iconic obstacles, but except for the Jump Hang and Soritatsu Kabe I really didn’t find the rest of the ‘overhaul’ anything dramatic or special, certainly nothing compared to that of Shin-Sasuke’s (specifically 19, 18 cut a lot of corners which were addressed in 19). Also the fact that Shingo almost cleared a ‘new’ Stage 3 in its introductory tournament confirmed that corners were cut in some places in 5 as well. I think the renewal did its job in the sense that it really set a new standard for how brutal the course is supposed to be. After tournaments 1-4, where 20+ people would clear stage 1 and multiple final stage attempts was common, the new obstacles really stuck out as things that your average athlete really couldn't pull off. Sure, there may not have been a huge quantity of new obstacles, but the changes that were there made a huge difference. And honestly, if they did an 18 and changed the whole course (or most of it), I'm not even sure we would've gotten a stage 1 clear. I'm actually not sure if I'd call any of the renewals perfect. I think 5 did the best by introducing some iconic obstacles and making the course significantly more difficult than previously, though you could still see traces of the course from 4. 18 did have some corners cut, though the course mostly felt brand new and harder than before, so I think it did fine. 25's course felt quite a bit like the Shin course but slightly modified for the first 2 stages, while having a great new 3rd stage. 28's actually seemed slightly easier than 27 aside from the Crazy Cliffhanger, and maybe Yuuji could've Kanzen'd again had he gotten past it. And 32's kinda felt like the 2nd half of a renewal that was already started in 31, with a stupidly easy stage 2.
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Post by subtleagent on Oct 3, 2021 2:57:54 GMT -5
I'd honestly argue the Crazy Cliffhanger and maybe the Swap Salmon Ladder were the only things in 28's renewal that were harder than 27's course. Mainly thanks to the lazy modifications (Jump Hang Kai, Ni Ren Soritatsu Kabe, Spider Walk that was just ripped from the Jumping Spider with an extra panel slapped on, nerfed Unstable Bridge, Passing Wall, and Pipe Slider), misplaced obstacles (Curtain Cling after the Cliffhanger was just anti-climactic), and Stage 2's lenient time limit. To me it just added to the over all downtrodden and soul sucking feeling 28 had (the weak competitive field, All-Star's "retirement" and god awful dinner party that no one liked being icing on that cake).
5's renewal was fine IMO, and it did have some pretty iconic obstacles (Jump Hang, Soritatsu Kabe, modified Spider Walk, and Body Prop). Though I really didn't care for the Cliffhanger Dansagata (they should've stuck with the Cliffhanger Kai from the beginning IMO) and the Tackle Machine IMO is kind of overrated (the Tackle is better). I personally think 7 did Stage 2 right with the renewal we were given (though the time limits in the first few tournaments were WAY too high).
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Post by dakohosu on Oct 3, 2021 4:29:38 GMT -5
Yeah I suppose you're right. You could poke holes in every renewal; had they implemented Sasuke 19's course straight up in 18, but maybe not make the obstacles so hard (like have the Jumping Spider and Flying Chute in their Sasuke 18 configurations) I think that would've been almost perfect given that this consolidated a completely modified course without the cut corners like the Net Bridge, Bungee Bridge etc. We would've probably got around 3-5 Stage 1 clears which I think is appropriate for a renewal.
I think Sasuke 5's Stage 1 was strong but Stages 2 and 3 bar the Body Prop just seemed a bit too samey, which was kind of confirmed by Shingo almost reaching the Final Stage; 5's Stage 3 was kind of the same as 32's renewal in that they already made it harder in Sasuke 4 thus feeling that the changes they needed to make were limited. If it were up to me I would've personally added Sasuke 9's Stage 3 renewal in Sasuke 5, as I feel like that would've made the entire course feel like much more of a brutal renewal rather than just making Stage 1 insanely hard and not really tapping into the rest. For Stage 2, I agree with subtleagent in that they should've implemented 7's Stage 2, though yeah the time limit was too stringent to the point that competitors went way too slowly.
25's I'd actually say was my favorite, purely because the Stage 3 overhaul was by far the most impressive we've ever seen. Stage 1 wasn't that hard but brought back a lot of retro obstacles which I found enjoyable to watch if a tad too easy and Stage 2 saw only minor improvements but the addition of the Double Salmon Ladder made the stage feel a lot more time-stringent which added a lot of drama imo. Stage 3 was awesome though; I remember seeing it as a 13-year-old kid and thinking 'is this even possible?' but not in the same way as 32-34's where it was pretty obvious no one was going to clear. The Ultimate Cliffhanger was f***ing hard but could be overcome by training and wasn't reliant on luck like the crazy transitions, while the rest of the course was innovative and suitably balanced (I mean look at 28's Stage 3 by comparison, where it's unfailable obstacle, unfailable obstacle, CRAZY CLIFFHANGER....). Obvs this was almost a reversed approach on a renewal compared to Sasuke 5 in that Stage 1 wasn't that hard but Stage 3 was where everyone would fail miserably; I kind of prefer that though as the later stages should be comparatively harder and send more of a message to competitors. I get why they wouldn't want to do that for 5 though given that they probably didn't want anothet tournament with 37 clears...
28 I think was a shame as it did have some cool ideas but they were just executed terribly. Stage 2's time limit was too high and Stage 3 was too unbalanced. Stage 1 was awful though, having some of the laziest modifications we've ever seen like the Double Warped Wall. It's also like they used 27's course as a reference point of difficulty forgetting that 27 was a massive nerf from 25-26.
I'm not even inclined to call 32 a renewal. Partially because 31 was given an overhaul to prevent Ryo from achieving Total Victory but we got one anyway, hence limiting further changes they could've made. Stage 2 could've been exciting as it was meant to have a 90 second time limit but they upped it to 115 seconds due to the poor clear rate (which I really don't understand as the point of a renewal is for more competitors to fail earlier on but ok). Stage 3 I won't even go into as we know the story with that.....
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Rafas
Honma Kōta
sometimes
Posts: 123
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Post by Rafas on Oct 27, 2021 14:57:36 GMT -5
I think 17 was overrated. I'm not saying it's bad, I think it's a good tournament, but it's not as good as most people say it is. Yeah sure, we got shunsuke's best ever run, and of course nagano's kanzen, but if I'm being honest, that was it. Stage 1 had whatever the hell the "Maruta Zaka" is, and the whole stage just looked so ugly. Stage 2 was good, I'll give it that, and stage 3 was pretty good as well. But I found fails such as Bunpei's underwhelming body prop fail very disappointing, as I think he should've made the final again, and Shingo as well. But of course you can argue with the fact that it is a good tournament. I just think it's not in the top 5 and is very overrated.
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zoran
Jessie Graff
Posts: 1,015
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Post by zoran on Oct 27, 2021 15:18:43 GMT -5
I think 17 was overrated. I'm not saying it's bad, I think it's a good tournament, but it's not as good as most people say it is. Yeah sure, we got shunsuke's best ever run, and of course nagano's kanzen, but if I'm being honest, that was it. Stage 1 had whatever the hell the "Maruta Zaka" is, and the whole stage just looked so ugly. Stage 2 was good, I'll give it that, and stage 3 was pretty good as well. But I found fails such as Bunpei's underwhelming body prop fail very disappointing, as I think he should've made the final again, and Shingo as well. But of course you can argue with the fact that it is a good tournament. I just think it's not in the top 5 and is very overrated. 17 also had the circle slider and the structure besides the upwards rolling log felt like the culmination of that era's stage 1 and was probably the hardest of that era behind 15(only due to weather), if they replaced the upwards rolling log with the crooked wall before the warped wall, it would have been excellent.
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Post by dakohosu on Oct 27, 2021 15:31:23 GMT -5
Pretty much every Kanzenseiha tournament is overrated imo. Just because someone wins doesn't make necessarily it a good tournament, especially when in most cases that result is spoiled and the trajectory of results in the tournaments leading up to it suggests a Kanzen is likely to happen anyway. 17 I'd say was better than 31 and 38 in terms of predictability but I still think 24 was a much better tournament. It was far more nail-biting and had much more of a shock factor when everyone expected Nagano to win again but he then failed the First Stage; so for the rest of the tournament, it was a case of 'it could be anyone' especially with so many strong competitors and 5 finalists.
In 17 the only real candidates were Bunpei who got eliminated pretty early in Stage 3, and then Shunsuke was also on the cards until Nagano also cleared Stage 3 in which case it was obviously going to be him. Granted it was probably the best moment in the history of the show seeing him look down from the tower after 3 near misses, but I don't think that alone makes it the best ever tournament or an S-tier one as people like to call it (obvs this is just my opinion)... it's defo a top 10 tournament but the underwhelming Stage 1 and stagnant Stage 2 knock it down a couple of pegs imo. Also the competitive field that tournament was kinda thin compared to the last few tournaments; loads of guys like Iketani, both Kobayashis, and the Olympic gymnasts just didn't compete. I also realise I'm being super nit picky when I say the numbers were hella weird in 17 too, but it did sort of make Stage 1 feel a bit disjointed, seeing Bunpei and Takeda running a bit earlier then just cutting or digesting most of the 90s which should be the most nail-biting part of Stage 1.
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Post by subtleagent on Oct 27, 2021 22:21:25 GMT -5
Weirdly I would also say 4 is overrated. Obviously they couldn't show all 37 clears, but they cut so many of them without digests and it made it feel like there were parts missing in the tournament. Though the stakes for who would Kanzens were admittedly amazing.
I would honestly say Morimoto's win in 38 was more underwhelming than Yuuji's two wins mostly because it was on a stagnant course with so many technical problems and that really killed the suspense, and again did they need to make his Kanzens so f***ing obvious?
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Post by dakohosu on Oct 28, 2021 8:44:55 GMT -5
4 I don’t think is that overrated, not because it’s an amazing tournament purely because no one sees it in the same vein as the other Kanzen tournaments.
I definitely think it was the best tournament in the first era mainly because of Stage 3 which beforehand was laughably easy even for the era. It was the first time we actually saw Stage 3 as a genuinely brutal hurdle to overcome before the final. But yeah the editing was shocking; Stage 1 lasted about 20 minutes despite there being so many clears and most competitors’ entire runs were just erased from any broadcast even if they made it to Stage 2.
It also made the Kanzen kind of predictable because everyone who did well either had their Stage 1 and 2 runs cut (meaning it wouldn’t have been them) or they failed Stage 1. Omori and Shingo both failed early thus eliminating them as candidates, and the only remaining competitors who got full coverage were Akiyama and Yamada. Yamada was then eliminated so it was obviously going to be Akiyama.
It was only slightly less predictable than 31 as the person everyone was expecting to win was eliminated later on, though nowhere near as bad as 38 or perhaps even 17. Good tournament, nothing that special besides Stage 3 and obvs Akiyama’s Kanzen (which again I stress does not give it a free pass to being one of the best of all time).
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