Post by gokuisgod420 on Mar 15, 2021 4:36:51 GMT -5
So I think we can all agree the cliffhanger dimension and vertical limit Kai are too easy now with not only Morimoto being able to zip through it but that yoshiuki guy as well so how about we remove the rest bar in between the cliffhanger dimension and vertical limit it’s probably doable nowadays
It might be just about doable in practice, and I do mean 'just about' given that even guys like Ryo and Yusuke failed the combo in practice where the burden of the first half of Stage 3 obvs didn't apply. Then when you consider that they'd have to take on this combo following a soon-to-be-updated set of 2-3 preceding Stage 3 obstacles that would wear out a good chunk of their stamina, and take on the Cliffhanger WITH moving ledges (which most competitors can't practice for), then the chances of anyone clearing the combo is incredibly slim.
You only need to look at Sasuke 34-35 to understand why this combo would be detrimental for Sasuke. No one even made it past the UCCH except for Yusuke who's the Cliffhanger god at this point, and even though he shook his arms out between the two obstacles, he barely made it halfway down the first of three ledges; this is even before the transitions which are typically the hardest aspect of the VLK/where most people fail. It was at that moment they realized that the combo could ruin the show because results would've stagnated as everyone would just end up failing the combo tournament after tournament causing ratings and interest to plummet. Even with the green resting bar added, no one bar Morimoto made it past the VLK in 35 or 36.
I think this sufficiently proves that the CHD+VLK (which is obvs even harder than the UCCH+VLK) would be a really bad idea, both from a pragmatic and fanboy perspective. Obvs having a hard(er) course is exciting, but it's a case of law of limiting returns; if the difficulty is increased such that it's considered nigh on impossible, results become predictable and thus the tournaments become just kinda boring to watch. For me, Sasuke 25 hit the sweet spot in terms of a sufficient bump in difficulty (especially after 5 Final Stage attempts) but nothing f**k off impossible like Sasuke 32 and especially 33. The Ultimate Cliffhanger was considered insane back then but was quickly practiced for and conquered; even with over a year to train for (from 32-34), no one even came close to beating the UCCH+VLK combo in competition and in most cases (most meaning basically everyone), even in practice.
Last Edit: Mar 15, 2021 12:31:07 GMT -5 by tns8597
Post by subtleagent on Mar 15, 2021 11:13:09 GMT -5
Not really, the only one who cleared them legitimately is Morimoto. Tada, Rene and Yuuji didn't even have moving ledges, but the obstacle still took out 5/8 people in 37.
I think the Dimension is a great Cliffhanger, but they really picked a bad time to put it in. The UCCH was difficult enough as was, we really didn't need an ever harder Cliffhanger before a Kanzenseiha.
Look at the 2nd and 3rd Cliffhangers. Enough people had figured them out so their replacements were more understandable. Even the Shin-Cliffhanger was this tbh.
Then you get the Ultimate Cliffhanger which obviously won't come back due to it being too high and likely too expensive. IMO the nerf was unnecessary, they only did it because they were too worried about ratings.
Come to the CCH and UCCH which only had a handful of people beat, but the former had a kanzenseiha so it needed to be upgraded and the latter I'm still boggled that it needed to be replaced before a kanzen.
Post by Ninja Relaxer on Mar 15, 2021 13:47:10 GMT -5
Lately, every time they make the Cliffhanger/VLK harder, they make the rest of the stage easier to compensate. How about we go the opposite direction and make the CH easier and the rest of the stage harder?
IMO, Sasuke 24 was a good example of a Stage 3 done right. All the emphasis wasn't on the CH. The obstacles worked together to make a devilishly hard stage. That's more exciting to watch, IMO, than watching every contestant breeze through the first half of the course, then come up against a wall at the CH/VLK.
Post by subtleagent on Mar 15, 2021 19:57:49 GMT -5
If any I feel SASUKE 14 and 15 have the most underrated Stage 3. Each obstacle was hard enough to take someone out or wear them down and even the easier ones could still deceptively trip you up. It was well rounded and balanced out. Shame they nerfed it in 16 (which isn't nearly as bad as 27's nerf), but still.
Post by wrestlingfan55 on Mar 16, 2021 19:34:10 GMT -5
I agree about Sasuke 14-15 having the most balanced Stage 3. Ever since 18 they've revolved the entire stage around the Cliffhanger.
If they want to do a CH-VL combo, then at least make the CH somewhat doable without 1000 hours of replica practice. Moving ledges are also fine. Just no ridiculous jumps (unless it's a forwards jump similar to the Jumping Bars where you can actually see the ledge you're jumping towards).
The ultimate job:
A retired steel working, fire fighting fisherman turned district manager of a massage clinic.
Even the Shin-Cliffhanger wasn't that bad: they modified the back half of Stage 3 for Sasuke 19 because they were expecting someone (i.e. Nagano) to clear it. The only reason it took 4 tournaments for someone to do so was because so few people even made it that far during that period.
I'd argue even the Ultimate Cliffhanger, despite being considered ridiculous at the time, was also part of a fairly balanced Stage 3 due to the rest of the stage being appropriately difficult as well. From ANW4-6 for example (which used a pretty much identical Stage 3 to that of S25), no one failed the UCH. They'd either fail an obstacle in the first half, or towards the end of the stage. I'd honestly argue an obstacle like the Floating Boards could've even been harder than the UCH based on the failure rate.
Then we moved to the Rising era which imo is the point of no return. Sasuke 28-31 had by far the worst imbalance with the first half of the stage being so easy that literally no one failed it (literally meaning 24/24 clears), then 90% would go out on the CCH in what became a drearily predictable fashion. From then on, everytime they decided to make the first half more difficult, they'd feel the need to overcompensate by buffing up the Cliffhanger and/or Vertical Limit more than proportionately. Hell, they didn't even modify the first half for Sasuke 37 yet decided to further harden the CH. At least we did get a few Sidewinder fails here and there, but still the vast majority of the 'drama' comes in the form of someone failing one of the 180 transitions. It honestly says a lot when certain competitors have failed the 180 transitions 5-6 times now; I remember when Hioki made it past the first of two transitions on the UCCH, people were reacting almost akin to when someone cleared the entire stage in the old days, which just shows how OP the obstacle is and how much it defines the stage entirely.
I do think there is room for some sort of combo, but nothing along the lines of the what's being proposed here; if they were to implement a CH+VL combo, one or both obstacles should be made easier to accommodate the fact that you have to attempt both with no rest. I don't think it'd be very popular to take out the 180 transitions as that's all Sasuke competitors train nowadays lol, so maybe just have a normal Crazy Cliffhanger followed by a straight Vertical Limit. Alternatively, you could connect the Vertical Limit Kai and Pipe Slider, given that the latter is far too easy as a standalone, but I'm more hoping that the latter gets replaced entirely for 39.