Refresh Salmon Ladder Combo

[kiminonawasasuke]

Remember the good time in SASUKE 21 that the Salmon Ladder has f***ed up nearly the whole Stage 2, but nowadays both SASUKE and ANW competitors can fly up like nothing exists.

So here is some appears at my brain to change the Salmon Ladder:

1/ Revive Swap Salmon Ladder: Seeing ANW competitors usually skip one rungs at the transition, why we don't bring back this version. I know Inui has made this obstacle so technical, glitch and bulls**t DQ, but get rid all of that, and it's OK right?

2/ Brand new Angle Salmon Ladder: Appears at NNL 2019 Stage 2, this is the old Salmon Ladder but angle it 45 degree, and the results show that this could be challenging for the competitors.

3/ Well, at NNL 2019 Stage 3 but I don't know this obstacle name. It's kind of Salmon Ladder + En Garde, when the bar is placed inside the rungs instead of above, so competitors has to shrink the bar to exit the current rung, jump up, and extend it to place at the new one.

4/ A vertical version of The Wedge :lol:

How about your idea?

[tns8597]

Here is what I'll say.

Your #1 is a great idea; I found it such a shame that the SSL got removed due to being broken as a function of being too ambitious in its execution. Inui seems to have this massive double standard where some obstacles (i.e. the Fish Bone) are designed such that you can easily get yourself disqualified, yet other obstacles have to be designed in such a way which prevent you from doing anything illegal. The SSL is an example of the latter, where instead of telling competitors that they can't go directly upwards, they had to make the rungs pop out and in, that functionality leading to a lot of dumb DQs like Kongu because the rungs just decided they didn't want to work properly anymore. They should bring it back and make the rungs non-motorised to prevent more controversy, and simply just tell people they can't go upwards; it's not that hard a rule to follow. Also state that if a competitor lands lop-sided they have to go back down and redo the swap transitions rather than flat out DQ them; again, not that hard a rule to follow..... but knowing Inui this just seems to be a bit too much to ask.

Number #2 and #3 I think are also pretty dope, though the latter seems far too ANW to be implemented in Sasuke (if you get what I mean).

Number #4 wouldn't work because the wedge's walls would need to be arranged in a V-shape and for a straight bar of a certain length, this wouldn't really work if the competitor needs to go upwards as eventually the bar would be too narrow for the widening width between the two walls, if that makes sense.

My personal choice would be a Salmon Ladder with a larger length between rungs followed by either the Flying Bar or another equally hard follow-up obstacle like the Wave Runner, Deja Vu or even the Roulette Cylinder if we're feeling really evil lol. I just miss when the Salmon Ladder was followed by the Unstable Bridge; it just made Stage 2 seem like the perfect test of speed, stamina, and upper-body strength.

[sasukefinnja]

I've been thinking about Salmon Ladder + Flying Bar combination for a long time. I hope that it happens some day.

[wrestlingfan55]

Flying Bar in Stage 2 would be awful- it's made for Stage 3. You could put the Salmon Ladder in Stage 3 as a transition obstacle (i.e. a Salmon Ladder-Flying Bar combo as mentioned previously).

[tns8597]

In what way is the Flying Bar made for Stage 3 beyond the fact that it's never been featured in any other stage? Yes obviously it's an upper-body-centric obstacle but so what; The Salmon Ladder is basically a vertical version of the same obstacle and is also brutal upper-body wise yet you're fine with it being in Stage 2.

I also personally think the combo is better suited to Stage 2 difficulty-wise, in that it'd ween out a lot of the competitors who don't deserve to clear, which sounds cruel but would fundamentally prevent people like ABC-Z from reaching Stage 3 and giving super underwhelming performances (like Darvish in 36). By comparison, I don't think any of the Stage 3 regulars would have any trouble with the combo so it wouldn't really cause much damage (that obvs depends on which version of the Flying Bar you use but I'm assuming the lite version with two transitions). I can also see the Flying Bar becoming much more difficult under the pressure of time, as competitors will likely feel forced to try and execute a transition even when they're not ready, which can cause a potential fail.

[Kane-Not-Kosugi]

Feb 25, 2021 17:40:50 GMT -5 tns8597 said:

In what way is the Flying Bar made for Stage 3 beyond the fact that it's never been featured in any other stage? Yes obviously it's an upper-body-centric obstacle but so what; The Salmon Ladder is basically a vertical version of the same obstacle and is also brutal upper-body wise yet you're fine with it being in Stage 2.

I also personally think the combo is better suited to Stage 2 difficulty-wise, in that it'd ween out a lot of the competitors who don't deserve to clear, which sounds cruel but would fundamentally prevent people like ABC-Z from reaching Stage 3 and giving super underwhelming performances (like Darvish in 36). By comparison, I don't think any of the Stage 3 regulars would have any trouble with the combo so it wouldn't really cause much damage (that obvs depends on which version of the Flying Bar you use but I'm assuming the lite version with two transitions). I can also see the Flying Bar becoming much more difficult under the pressure of time, as competitors will likely feel forced to try and execute a transition even when they're not ready, which can cause a potential fail.

The Flying Bar is too reliant on precision and technique to be in Stage 2. I can't see a speed stage begin and end with quick obstacles like the Rolling Maruta, Wall Lift, Spider Walk, and Reverse Conveyor just to have this long bar combo of Salmon Ladder+Flying Bar. Completely kills the momentum of the stage and honestly it's less likely you'll have people to attempt Stage 3. Too many people would fall there imo, and if they clear they'll have lost a lot of time.

[Ninja Relaxer]

Feb 25, 2021 19:17:55 GMT -5 Kane-Not-Kosugi said:

The Flying Bar is too reliant on precision and technique to be in Stage 2. I can't see a speed stage begin and end with quick obstacles like the Rolling Maruta, Wall Lift, Spider Walk, and Reverse Conveyor just to have this long bar combo of Salmon Ladder+Flying Bar. Completely kills the momentum of the stage and honestly it's less likely you'll have people to attempt Stage 3. Too many people would fall there imo, and if they clear they'll have lost a lot of time.

Good point about the Flying Bar being a precision obstacle and thus out of place in Stage 2. But maybe that's exactly what Stage 2 needs more of: obstacles that punish you for trying to go too fast or too slow. We haven't really had anything like that since the Unstable Bridge, which was a good addition to Stage 2 IMO (I especially liked the way it caught out Urushihara in 23 -- one of my all-time favorite Stage 2 failures).

The Spider Walk/Drop kind of fills that role too, but it's not nearly as fun to watch, IMO, and almost never makes much of an impact on a person's run.

[kiminonawasasuke]

Talking about Unstable Bridge, how about reviving "the only good thing exists in SSK 27 Stage 3" and placed it after Salmon Ladder

Yep, it's Chain See-Saw but extend the distance and can add a third one.

[Kane-Not-Kosugi]

Feb 25, 2021 20:59:39 GMT -5 Ninja Relaxer said:

Feb 25, 2021 19:17:55 GMT -5 Kane-Not-Kosugi said:

The Flying Bar is too reliant on precision and technique to be in Stage 2. I can't see a speed stage begin and end with quick obstacles like the Rolling Maruta, Wall Lift, Spider Walk, and Reverse Conveyor just to have this long bar combo of Salmon Ladder+Flying Bar. Completely kills the momentum of the stage and honestly it's less likely you'll have people to attempt Stage 3. Too many people would fall there imo, and if they clear they'll have lost a lot of time.

Good point about the Flying Bar being a precision obstacle and thus out of place in Stage 2. But maybe that's exactly what Stage 2 needs more of: obstacles that punish you for trying to go too fast or too slow. We haven't really had anything like that since the Unstable Bridge, which was a good addition to Stage 2 IMO (I especially liked the way it caught out Urushihara in 23 -- one of my all-time favorite Stage 2 failures).

The Spider Walk/Drop kind of fills that role too, but it's not nearly as fun to watch, IMO, and almost never makes much of an impact on a person's run.

The Unstable Bridge is still a much quicker (and arguably easier) obstacle than the Flying Bar. Idk if that was the greatest comparison to make. You can get through the Unstable Bridge much faster than you can make 2 Flying Bar jumps. 

I like the idea of an obstacle that is harder when you rush, but I honestly think it would have to still be something more dynamic like the Grim Sweeper or something. Not saying bring the Grim Sweeper to SASUKE, but something similar in terms of speed and precision.

[tns8597]

I don't really see how the Flying Bar is any more of a 'pace breaker' than the Swap Salmon Ladder which requires the same sorts of horizontal tranisitons.

And yeah Ninja Relaxer that was sort of my point; the obstacle can be a bit out of place if competitors were to approach it cautiously and slowly they do on Stage 3, but obvs with a stringent time limit they won't be able to do that anymore and will be forced to rush. Make the time limit such that you only really have time for one swing per transition, and the obstacle won't feel like a pace breaker whatsoever.

Another idea; Salmon Ladder+Corkscrew... nah, I'm just kidding. I'm not psychopathic enough to want to see competitors have to attempt the Corkscrew.

[Kane-Not-Kosugi]

Feb 26, 2021 3:58:09 GMT -5 tns8597 said:

I don't really see how the Flying Bar is any more of a 'pace breaker' than the Swap Salmon Ladder which requires the same sorts of horizontal tranisitons.

And yeah Ninja Relaxer that was sort of my point; the obstacle can be a bit out of place if competitors were to approach it cautiously and slowly they do on Stage 3, but obvs with a stringent time limit they won't be able to do that anymore and will be forced to rush. Make the time limit such that you only really have time for one swing per transition, and the obstacle won't feel like a pace breaker whatsoever.

Another idea; Salmon Ladder+Corkscrew... nah, I'm just kidding. I'm not psychopathic enough to want to see competitors have to attempt the Corkscrew.

Even if they only have time for 1 swing per transition, you're asking to lose half of the Stage 3 regulars.

Also, I think we can all agree for numerous reasons that the Swap Salmon Ladder was not a good obstacle lol I don't know if you should really base your advocations for the Flying Bar by using the Swap Salmon Ladder as evidence imo. The construction was off, the rules regarding it were bad, etc.

The only way the Flying Bar should be in Stage 2 imo is if the gaps between the cradles are SERIOUSLY nerfed.

[tns8597]

Is losing a few Stage 3 regulars really a bad thing though? It makes for some excitement and a difficulty increase appropriate for a renewal, especially as that 'half' will probably consist of the Cliffhanger chokers; if it can potentially stop people like Sato or Hioki then it's a success in my eyes, not that I don't want them to reach Stage 3 but taking out competitors of that level of consistency is a testament to how much of a 'renewal' the renewal is if you get my point. It's also arguably a failure on behalf of the producers if we get more Stage 3 attempts than we did in 38, given that every stage in 39 is meant to be harder than before.

And r/e the Swap Salmon Ladder see my first reply on this thread which shows I'm fully cognizant of how broken the obstacle was. My point is that, glitches and dumb f***ing rules aside, the transitions are kind of similar to that of the Flying Bar, and while competitors did take the obstacle slowly, it never felt like a pace breaker in my eyes, especially when your eyes were firmly on the clock to see how much time they'd have left (doesn't apply to 28 but yeah).

And remember that the Flying Bar has already been massively nerfed; 25 had smaller cradles and six of them, compared to much wider ones and half the number. This 'lite' version would actually work well following a Salmon Ladder where competitors are thrown off by the time limit and are already somewhat fatigued; I don't think it should be made any easier given how high the clear rate on this variant already is. I'd say if it were to be kept in Stage 3, then it should be moved to the final obstacle with the initial six cradles of their original width. As much as I hate ANW, the prospect of a competitor making it that far just to fall due to one dodgy transition creates so much more suspense and nail-biting excitement than Sasuke's nerfed Pipe Slider.

[wrestlingfan55]

Flying Bar would be terrible in Stage 2, because it's not an obstacle that can be done quickly without an unfair amount of specific practice. It would cause a similar problem in Stage 2 as the Cliffhanger in Stage 3 (just to a lesser extent), where people who haven't practiced a specific jump will automatically fail.

With the Unstable Bridge, you can get through it quickly, or slowly. There isn't the same speed aspect with the Flying Bar.

Sometimes it's just nice to see competitors struggle to get through Stage 2 on time, rather than fail a purely-precision jump.

[Kane-Not-Kosugi]

tns Idk how much ANW you watch because I see you only on SASUKE threads haha but having a Flying Bar on Stage 2 is asking for ANW9 and 10, which were horrendous. It'd either be a Flying Bar massacre or a bunch of timeouts or a mix of both

[tns8597]

Feb 26, 2021 19:23:52 GMT -5 Kane-Not-Kosugi said:

tns Idk how much ANW you watch because I see you only on SASUKE threads haha but having a Flying Bar on Stage 2 is asking for ANW9 and 10, which were horrendous. It'd either be a Flying Bar massacre or a bunch of timeouts or a mix of both

I've watched Stages 2-4 for all of the main ANW seasons (not 12 because I didn't f*** with the format at all).

I can't remember exactly which obstacles were in those Stage 2 because they change it all year round but I definitely think there's a massive difference between ANW's Stage 2 and Sasuke's, Flying Bar notwithstanding. 

In ANW every obstacle are these sorts of massive dynamic ones like the Wingnut Alley etc. that require immense momentum, speed, and parkour-like moves, and they add new versions of these crazy complex and creative obstacles every season; my point is that ANW's Stage 2 is ridiculously hard, way more so than if Sasuke kept most of its current Stage 2 the same (which let's be honest will likely be the case) where competitors have trained for most of those stale obstacles, yet incorporating one hard element that'll take out a bunch of rookies/novices. I don't see why Stage 2 would be a Flying Bar massacre especially when none of the 'Stage 3 regulars' to quote your phrase have actually failed the obstacle. Granted, maybe with the Rolling Log being kept as the first obstacle, its perceived difficulty will increase, but only time will tell. 

But yeah, r/e ANW, their Stage 2s have been way too OP for a number of years where we have like 40 Stage 1 clears and like 2 Stage 2 clears, which just becomes a bit boring to see competitor after competitor fail and fail again; except for ANW 11 though, somehow they decided to nerf Stage 2 massively and we got 21 Stage 2 clears (which is almost twice that of any Sasuke tournament lol).

[Kane-Not-Kosugi]

It's not just about the technique, as I stated earlier. You seem to be disregarding the fact that it'll just lead to timeouts or rushing that leads to fails.

If anything, I like the combo, but it belongs at the beginning of Stage 3

[wrestlingfan55]

In my opinion any decent athlete deserves to make it to Stage 3, where they'd have to face more "advanced" obstacles- the Flying Bar being one of them.

And to the previous point- imagine if a competitor has about 20 seconds left before the Flying Bar- it would either lead to an obvious timeout or a pointless dunk in the water. It's just not an obstacle for a timed stage.

As far as it being in Stage 3, it'd be better in the 2nd half of the stage, ideally with no rest bar/platform before it.

[tns8597]

Okay; I’ll concede defeat r/e it being in Stage 2 (though given that it would come directly after the Salmon Ladder your point about a competitor only having 20 seconds left when they attempt it isn’t really valid).

Anyway, If it’s going to be in Stage 3 then I definitely think it should be the last obstacle in its full format as was originally intended in Sasuke 25.

As I mentioned, given how rare and impactful a Stage 3 clear is, then the highest level of suspense should really be reserved for the end of the stage, where the competitor has shown they’re capable of defeating the CH and VL (which in itself is such a rarity) and only one obstacle stands between them and the Final. The recent Pipe Slider (Yuuji’s fail notwithstanding) imo is such an underwhelming end to the stage, as it effectively warrants a guaranteed clear if the competitor reaches it. The original six-cradle Flying Bar by comparison is the right level of unforgiving and a case of ‘one move and you’re out’ such that it really makes for a nail-biting ending to Stage 3 as should be the case; knowing that a competitor made it this far still to fall into the muddy water.

We haven’t had such a captivating final Stage 3 obstacle attempted since Sasuke 17 imo; the Gliding Ring, Bar Glider and Rising Pipe Slider were all sussed out way too quickly. I don’t see why Sasuke doesn’t want to move the Flying Bar to the final obstacle given that ANW and so many other international equivalents do this likely for the reasons I’ve outlined