tns8597
Jordan Jovtchev
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Post by tns8597 on Feb 2, 2021 14:15:06 GMT -5
What tournament do you think is the most overrated/got too much unwarranted praise in your opinion?
I can think of three in no particular order:
- Sasuke 36: A lot of people say that this is the best tournament of all time but I honestly disagree. The reason I found this tournament to actually not live up to its hype is because while there were several breakout and redemption runs, most of these didn't actually have much tangible impact in the wider picture and grander scheme of things. Morimoto was once again the only finalist and there were no course changes despite Stage 2 being really stale, both of which were honestly so disappointing, and all of the redemption/breakout runs ended rather predictably either at the UCCH or Vertical Limit, hence what I mean by not much tangible impact. If Ryo or Yuuji had made the Final Stage for the first time in years, or if we'd seen some shock early fails (Drew's DQ was shocking but a negative for the tournament in my eyes because of how dumb it was), then it would've been much more worth its weight. These are some reasons why I rank 36 below 37, because the latter just had so much more shock factor with Morimoto failing Stage 1 and two finalists coming out of literally nowhere and thus breaking the trend of Morimoto dominating.
- Sasuke 38: A lot of people ranked this as a 10/10 but again I disagree. My reasoning is that just because a tournament resulted in a Kanzen doesn't make it a good one, especially when that Kanzen was teased and was arguably the most predictable victory we've ever seen. Stage 1 started out strong but quickly got boring, especially with the pathetically easy first half of the stage being out of sync with the Dragon Glider's difficulty, resulting in loads of joke competitors having their runs unnecessarily drawn out then literally all of them failing the DG, which got pretty tiring to watch. Stage 2 was great with the refresh it needed, resulting in loads of shock fails and down-to-the-wire runs, but Stages 3 and 4 are definitely where S38 falls flat on its face imo. Apart from Yoshiyuki's shock fail, which again I consider a negative of this tournament due to the ledge being left wet with disinfectant, the results of the tournament were perhaps the most predictable they'd been in the history of the show. Jun Sato failed the Cliffhanger surprise surprise, Isa's fail was shocking but given that he would've failed the CHD anyway it reduces some of the impact of that slip-up, and the fact that Tada's first two runs were digested made it pretty obvious he was going to fail Stage 3. And once Tada had failed, given that a Kanzen was already teased, the entire last 30 minutes were spoiled, as though the outcome wasn't 100% predictable anyway. Not a bad tournament by any means, but definitely the worst Kanzen tournament we've had.
- Sasuke 27: Another example of a tournament being overhyped because of a Kanzen imo, even when the entire course was modelled around Sasuke's 'last tournament' ending with a Kanzen. Stage 3 was unacceptably nerfed, and the Final Stage just seemed like an afterthought that took 5 minutes to design. Editing was also terrible with so many runs digested out of order, which made the broadcast just feel so incohesive and disjointed. I actually don't dislike this tournament as much as I used to because it does have some positives such as Ryo rising to prominence and Nagano having a final stand (though this was followed by further decline so there wasn't much tangible impact of his run), but I definitely think given how many similarities in editing 27 had to 26 despite the large difference in perception of those tournaments, that 27 is defo a bit overhyped.
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Post by subtleagent on Feb 2, 2021 16:57:05 GMT -5
SASUKE 12 comes to mind. Aside from Nagano's final, Shiratori having his breakout run and Asaoka finally passing the Pipe Slider. 12 started this suspicious trend of digesting/partially cutting Shingo in Stages 1 and 2 (then again Takeda's Stage 2 runs from 8 - 17 bar 13 were all fast-forwarded so maybe not) and the whole tournament just felt disjointed with most of Stage 3 being chopped up it just felt really out of order. Also the Yamagoe and Ipponbashi were pretty meh in terms of new obstacles in terms of neither one really did any noteworthy damage and while the Yamagoe was interesting to watch, the Ipponbashi just wasn't.
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Post by PizzaKing57 on Feb 2, 2021 17:00:52 GMT -5
It has to be SASUKE 38 for me. I don't know why so many people are overhyped for this tournament and giving it such a high rating, when it's just like a repeat of the previous tournament with almost all challengers who cleared the 1st Stage last time, doing it again in this tournament and some challengers like the All-Stars, Shunsuke and Kanno who've not been doing so well recently, continuing their slump in the 1st Stage. If one of these people cleared Stage 1 and bounced back after a long time like Ryo did in 36, then the tournament would've probably been better than this. Also, there were a lot of repetitive results like Shingo and Kanno failing the Dragon Glider again, Sakuma failing the Warped Wall for the third time (even though he was cut), Sato boringly failing the Cliffhanger for the fifth straight time and Kawaguchi strangely failing the Warped Wall, even though it was completely dry. Not to mention Inui's terrible editing by not showing nearly enough regular people fully and even going as far as to fast forwarding half the Morimoto Sedai field disrespectfully, just to show more people I didn't like which really disgusted and upset me. And as for the 3rd Stage, there was nothing exciting about it at all because there were only returning challengers who made it there again, instead of any newcomers. And even though there was a Total Victory this time, the Final Stage was just unexciting to watch as 1) The usual Grand Champion only made it there again and 2) It was played at Mount Midoriyama instead of the live broadcast at Yokohama Red Brick Warehouse, where over thousands of people gathered themselves round to watch the attempt in real time. Because of these negative reasons that I've outlined above, this tournament is only getting 5/10 from me and I expected a lot better success than this.
36 was a more enjoyable tournament, as there were two breakout runs from Araki and Tada whom both made it as far as the Cliffhanger in Stage 3, leading to the new Morimoto Sedai group being created, as well as Ryo and Yuuji both bouncing back after a long time and also getting as far as the Vertical Limit. 37 was also a better tournament than this disappointing one because the two people who reached the Final Stage, were newcomers and were Morimoto's best friend and a German representative who both got to take their first crack at the tower and although they failed early on at the Salmon Ladder Jugo Dan, it was still exciting to watch as it was their first attempts and could probably go further than this if they make it to Stage 4 again in the future. Last of all, more people's runs in the 1st Stage were shown fully and that also included the last 20 people wearing #81-100 consecutively, which had never happened that much before and so that was exciting to watch, whilst this time round, five people between #81-100 were digested in the 1st Stage and so that was just beyond disappointing.
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tns8597
Jordan Jovtchev
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Post by tns8597 on Feb 3, 2021 9:17:04 GMT -5
Maybe I'm biased because 12 is my favorite tournament but I can sort of excuse the digesting given that we got high numbers of clears across the first three stages, so I don't think it's reasonable to not expect some digesting here and there in those cases. I actually think given the results the editing was really on point and captured exactly what the viewers wanted to see. Rumbling Dice attempts were mainly skipped because we had 10 Stage 3 attempts no one failed there/was expected to fail there anyway, and the numerous Stage 2 digests made sense given that to watch clear after clear in full would've been quite boring. I also think the crowd was among the best it had been; a mix of All-Stars, rookies, and rising stars on Stage 3, and the Final Stage comprising of an interesting mix of competitors rather than just Nagano; we had Asaoka who had come back from a decline stronger than ever, and Shiratori who looked so unassuming yet destroyed Stage 3 and almost achieved Total Victory. Then obviously we had Nagano's near miss which was a heartbreaking but enticing ending to the tournament. Again this is just my inner bias speaking.
And yeah agreed about 38; I was also expecting the results to be much better generally across the board (even factoring in the Rolling Log). We got fewer clears than in 36 despite the course being easier, and those that did make Stage 3 failed pretty much exactly where or before we expected them to. The last half of the course was just a droll to watch honestly; I started doing work while watching Stage 3 and 4 in the background, it was that mundane by that point.
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Post by Ninja Relaxer on Feb 3, 2021 14:53:32 GMT -5
Sasuke 12 looks like a great competition, but it was absolutely butchered by G4*. There were so many digested Pipe Slider attempts from important competitors that it was frustrating to watch.
* At least, I assume G4 was responsible for the digesting. I haven't seen the original Japanese broadcast.
Personally, I think a lot of the earlier competitions -- Sasuke 1 and 2 in particular -- are overrated. Those first few years before the All Stars showed up were just kind of curiosities to me, like the pilot episode of a TV show, where not all the characters are nailed down and there are different actors playing some of the parts. They have a completely different tone and feel to them.
It's not just the lack of the All Stars either. The announcer make a big difference. Hatsuta is the voice of Sasuke for me, and Furutachi has a much different style (besides the timbre of his voice, he's much more solemn and poetic in his commentary).
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Post by wrestlingfan55 on Feb 3, 2021 15:16:19 GMT -5
Difficult one to answer, as I'm not sure if there is such a thing as an overrated tournament. I'll give 2 for the sake of discussion: Sasuke 18 and 30.
Sasuke 18 had a major upgrade, which was a huge plus. But perhaps if the results were similar to 19's (i.e. dramatic First Stage bloodbath), then it would have had more impact. It's almost funny to think that the top 3 competitors struggled with nothing up until a silly jump in the Cliffhanger, especially Nagano at his peak.
When it comes to Sasuke 30, I just didn't enjoy it as much as the results would suggest. I vaguely remember Stage 1 being tedious to sit through, as none of the top competitors struggled. Stage 2 had so many underwhelming fails on the Swap SL. Stage 3 was full of tedious CCH fails. Stage 4 was fun, at least.
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tns8597
Jordan Jovtchev
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Post by tns8597 on Feb 3, 2021 15:23:05 GMT -5
The problem with the G4 edit is that unless a competitor's run was shown in its absolute entirety, it gets fast-forwarded, and even if it is that doesn't guarantee that the run will be shown. That meant that competitors like Shiratori, Takeda, Akiyama, etc. where even 80% of their Stage 3 runs were shown, were still given the chop. It's also why they didn't even bother acknowledging most of the Stage 2 runs and instead just added them to the list of clears. The biggest problem I have with the G4 edits generally is that they order runs from worst to best, meaning that they'll show all the early fails on Stages 2/3 first before showing the competitors that do well, so the runs are shown completely out of order. It makes the results so predictable and effectively spoils them; like Shinji in 14 being made out to be the 'last man standing' because he went the furthest, even though he was actually the first to attempt Stage 3 that tournament. Also, my knowledge of Japanese is very very basic but I can still easily tell that 90% of the subtitles are fabricated and particularly the subtitling of competitor interviews can seem downright insulting. But none of these even come close to the UK edit on Challenge; if anyone else is here from the UK, they'll know what I mean when I say that the narrator (who replaces the subtitling completely) is one of the most infuriating I've ever come across.
Also, I never remember Sasuke 1 or 2 being seen as particularly standout tournaments. Most people who I've spoken to see the first three tournaments as mediocre-to-average, which I agree with, given the underwhelming difficulty by today's standards, as well as the fact that most of the competitors who did well were nobodies who didn't return in later tournaments. Also, given that especially Stage 1's mediocre difficulty facilitated large numbers of clears that we've never seen a repeat of since (i.e. 30+), we got so many instances of competitors who cleared Stage 1 but their results were just wiped from the broadcast completely, not even digested lol. But the main thing was the lack of excitement; Stages 1 and 3 were too easy for a clear to actually come across as impressive or inspiring, there were barely any competitors to root for, and the easy Stage 3 meant that we got loads of competitors attempting the Final Stage who clearly just weren't cut out for it resulting in most attempts not even being close/super anti-climactic.
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zoran
Jessie Graff
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Post by zoran on Feb 3, 2021 15:59:23 GMT -5
The problem with the G4 edit is that unless a competitor's run was shown in its absolute entirety, it gets fast-forwarded, and even if it is that doesn't guarantee that the run will be shown. That meant that competitors like Shiratori, Takeda, Akiyama, etc. where even 80% of their Stage 3 runs were shown, were still given the chop. It's also why they didn't even bother acknowledging most of the Stage 2 runs and instead just added them to the list of clears. The biggest problem I have with the G4 edits generally is that they order runs from worst to best, meaning that they'll show all the early fails on Stages 2/3 first before showing the competitors that do well, so the runs are shown completely out of order. It makes the results so predictable and effectively spoils them; like Shinji in 14 being made out to be the 'last man standing' because he went the furthest, even though he was actually the first to attempt Stage 3 that tournament. Also, my knowledge of Japanese is very very basic but I can still easily tell that 90% of the subtitles are fabricated and particularly the subtitling of competitor interviews can seem downright insulting. But none of these even come close to the UK edit on Challenge; if anyone else is here from the UK, they'll know what I mean when I say that the narrator (who replaces the subtitling completely) is one of the most infuriating I've ever come across. Also, I never remember Sasuke 1 or 2 being seen as particularly standout tournaments. Most people who I've spoken to see the first three tournaments as mediocre-to-average, which I agree with, given the underwhelming difficulty by today's standards, as well as the fact that most of the competitors who did well were nobodies who didn't return in later tournaments. Also, given that especially Stage 1's mediocre difficulty facilitated large numbers of clears that we've never seen a repeat of since (i.e. 30+), we got so many instances of competitors who cleared Stage 1 but their results were just wiped from the broadcast completely, not even digested lol. But the main thing was the lack of excitement; Stages 1 and 3 were too easy for a clear to actually come across as impressive or inspiring, there were barely any competitors to root for, and the easy Stage 3 meant that we got loads of competitors attempting the Final Stage who clearly just weren't cut out for it resulting in most attempts not even being close/super anti-climactic. What's wrong with Jim North as the narrator?
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Post by PizzaKing57 on Feb 3, 2021 16:09:43 GMT -5
I don't have a problem with Jim North's commentary, as he at least sounds entertaining enough and I like him more than that Stuart Hall guy who only announced SASUKE 2-20, whereas all tournaments up to 34 have been dubbed by North, especially during the time when Hall was arrested and when North had to redub all the tournaments that the previous narrator was featured in. I was glad that happened because although North says all the challenger's names in his own form of accent, he is a better sounding narrator than Hall who sounded too rusty and crooked for my liking.
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Post by Ninja Relaxer on Feb 3, 2021 16:14:28 GMT -5
I completely forgot about the UK edits. I've only ever seen a short clip from one, a compilation of Nagano's runs from that competition (probably around the time of Sasuke 17). The announcer was getting _really_ into it. It was... strange.
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Post by wrestlingfan55 on Feb 3, 2021 16:23:37 GMT -5
I preferred Stuart Hall as the commentator. His voice was classier and easier on the ears. But he had to be replaced and rightfully so. Jim North is fine- he's as enthusiastic as the Sasuke commentators which can be refreshing.
There was nothing quite like the original though. Coming home from school and watching a couple of NW episodes from 5-6pm. Ahhhh.
To get back on topic somewhat, I don't think we should necessarily judge a tournament based on any tournaments after it. I think it's better to just judge them based on the time they occurred- then again that's impossible for most of us to do for earlier tournaments.
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tns8597
Jordan Jovtchev
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Post by tns8597 on Feb 3, 2021 16:24:15 GMT -5
Ninja Relaxer hit the nail on the head.
He seemed like he was way too into the runs, to the point that his screaming distracted me from the actual run in question. Also, he often made really bad and cheesy jokes that were frankly so cringeworthy. It would've been much better just to keep subtitles (though the actual subtitling of the Japanese commentator, not the G4 bs) with a more objective/less cheesy sounding narrator giving summaries of competitor profiles where necessary.
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Post by Zach Smith on Feb 3, 2021 21:17:16 GMT -5
17 was very average outside of Nagano and Nagasaki
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Post by m4tt3r0x on Feb 4, 2021 1:29:27 GMT -5
Just gonna put this here cuz I don't wanna make another thread on underrated Sasukes.
Sasuke 25 was such a godly tournament for me. Am I overrating it? The course and results were completely unpredictable and there was a good variation of success and failure. It got one of the worst ratings for a Sasuke in viewership, but I thought it was ideal. Bringing back the old Stage 1 obstacles and green mats was nice. Then they were swapped out again one tournament later.. I miss the Circle Slider particularly. If only the course could get shaken up like that more often.
Unfortunately I don't think the off camera filming and editing has been anything great since the start of Shin Sasuke.
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tns8597
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Post by tns8597 on Feb 4, 2021 6:35:13 GMT -5
^I second that.
I never understood why Sasuke 25 was so hated; a lot of people seemed to criticize the randomization of start positions (which I didn't really understand the logic behind given that no one complained about them doing the same thing in Sasuke 18) and Stage 3 being too hard.
I don't think there's a problem with doing a number lottery once in a while, as it is somewhat refreshing to see strong competitors spread throughout the field. Obvs it wouldn't work for every tournament because the usual number assignments facilitate the gradual transition from joke competitors to a more serious part of the show which then segways into the more tense Stages 2 and 3, but after a Kanzen it makes sense to almost 'reset the playing field'. Yeah sure competitors #96-97 were complete cannon fodder but honestly who cares?
And r/e Stage 3, yes it was a HUGE step-up from Sasuke 24's Stage 3, but controversially I think it was an appropriate bump in difficulty given the 5 clears we got in the previous tournament. I honestly think the stage was the most exciting and tasteful renewal we've ever seen. Most Stage 3 'renewals' were just the same stage with a couple of new or modified obstacles incorporated, but every obstacle here was entirely new and required a new approach that had never been captialised before, like the Roulette Cylinder and Floating Boards. I also don't think it was 'impossible' as some people seem to say; yes it was ridiculously hard for the era but no one had trained for these obstacles so no doubt the stage would've been overcome in 3-4 tournaments even if it had been kept the same/not nerfed in 26 and 27. ANW based their Stage 3 on this iteration and after a few tournaments, we got 2 clears. It's certainly not to the level of Sasuke 32-34 where the UCCH+VLK combo was just downright unfair.
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Post by ChiBiJKT48 on Feb 5, 2021 1:40:25 GMT -5
I never understood why Sasuke 25 was so hated; a lot of people seemed to criticize the randomization of start positions (which I didn't really understand the logic behind given that no one complained about them doing the same thing in Sasuke 18). First of all, SASUKE 18 numbering are decided by the competitors themselves *probably except Nagano Makoto*. Second, I remember someone says that they rigged the Lottery so #X8, #X9 and #X0 were filled by top competitors. I don't believe that happened but seeing the list of those who Clears only having those numbers making me more thinking that it actually happen, which of course make me more protesting about the Lottery. They had good result and the dramatic Ultimate Cliffhanger appearance, sure, but the Lottery is something that *almost* kills the tournament in overall.
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Post by ChiBiJKT48 on Feb 5, 2021 1:45:28 GMT -5
Sasuke 12 looks like a great competition, but it was absolutely butchered by G4. There were so many digested Pipe Slider attempts from important competitors that it was frustrating to watch. Well, it is not totally G4's fault here. TBS version also have a lot of Digest. And by lot I mean Digest Massacre. Only three runs in Second Stage were shown in full *Yamada Koji, Yamada Katsumi, and Nagano Makoto*, then only three people that got his Rumbling Dice attempt *Yamada, Asaoka Hiroyuki, and Nagano* being seen. You can imagine the mess.
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tns8597
Jordan Jovtchev
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Post by tns8597 on Feb 5, 2021 4:33:05 GMT -5
Why would they need to show every Stage 2 run in full given that everyone cleared anyway? It would be way more boring to watch clear after clear than to just fast forward everyone given that the results were the same. Also r/e the Rumbling Dice attempts, those were skipped because they had 10 Stage 3 attempts and they needed to fit them all in the broadcast; I totally get skipping the first obstacle because no one failed it nor is it an obstacle that is particularly intense to watch.
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Post by wrestlingfan55 on Feb 5, 2021 13:47:30 GMT -5
Regarding Sasuke 25, was it actually disliked? I thought it was an enjoyable tournament- way better than 26 and 27. Stage 1 was enjoyable, and the "lottery" (as if) made it fun. Also seeing the 3 champions run back-to-back was great. No one will ever forget Nagano's award-winning dive on the Circle Slider.
In Stage 3, seeing 4 of the 5 finalists from the previous tournament fatigued before the UCH, then destroyed by the UCH, was a welcome shock. I still think the jump to the small ledge (and really, any technique-based jump in a Cliffhanter) was not needed.
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azn
Ishikawa Terukazu
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Post by azn on Feb 5, 2021 15:08:21 GMT -5
And r/e Stage 3, yes it was a HUGE step-up from Sasuke 24's Stage 3, but controversially I think it was an appropriate bump in difficulty given the 5 clears we got in the previous tournament. I honestly think the stage was the most exciting and tasteful renewal we've ever seen. Lets say however, someone cleared the Ultimate Cliffhanger in either SK25 or 26, the next obstacles they had to deal with were the Swing Circle, The Bungee Rope Climb and then the Flying Bar. Excluding the Flying Bar those two obstacles filled most of the water pit covering the latter half of the course which I feel is a major downgrade, considering how good the previous obstacles filled that spot. I feel if they kept the first half of the Third Stage the same in SK25 but have something similar to the latter half of the third stage between SK22-24, then it would have been better
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