Ranking Competitors - Keitaro

[azn]

(Hopefully I didn't make a bad, still kinda nooby at posting stuff lol)
Maybe a new thing that I can post when I got time on my side. But here it is, where you can finally say all what you need to say ("legally" I might add) on one of the more consistent competitors, Yamamoto Keitaro

So yes, I feel a Keitaro thread has suddenly turned LONG overdue, especially after the circumstances and aftermath of SK38. For some of us, his shocking fail wasn't surprising, some of us even correctly predicted where he was gonna fail last tournament... Like me. Others have wanted him to pass, only for them to be sad.

Now I know what we've said about Keitaro has been said in all the threads on SMF except a Keitaro themed thread, which is why I finally decided to make this. Out of all the competitors on the show, Keitaro is perhas the one with the most untapped potential, it's pretty obvious to all of us that his specialty is the third stage, yet five times in his career (as of when this is posted) he has been the takeda of the 2nd stage, never seeming to clear the stage.

So with that being said, where would you rank Keitaro as a competitor, a competent player in the first stage, with perhaps the biggest (though I will say a bit overrated) amount of potential for the third, that never seems to be shown. Just in case you don't understand the meaning behind the poll, S is the best tier, F is the worst tier

On a side note, the best way to see this potential into fruition is if he competes on Team Japan on a vs. The World tournament, it would be interesting to see what he can do given literally his third stage potential is foreign on any course.

[Paragus]

I'm gonna say he's an A tier. He's definitely late Third Stage/Final Stage material, but it's like the Second Stage is his kryptonite. It's actually really similar to ANW's rock climbers- they all face the same exact problem, but in the off-chance they make it to Stage 3, they can at least make it past the Cliffhanger.

So yeah, he's got potential, but until we see him fulfill it, he kinda sucks lol

[Ninja Relaxer]

Hm. I think I'd organize tiers this way:

S - has reached the Final at least twice and reaches the Third Stage consistently
A - reaches the Third Stage consistently
B - reaches the Second Stage consistently
C - has cleared the First Stage, but does not do so consistently
D - has a real chance of clearing the First Stage, but has not done so yet
F - has no chance of ever clearing any stage (joke competitors mostly)

This would put Keitaro in the B tier.

[azn]

Jan 26, 2021 23:59:07 GMT -5 Ninja Relaxer said:

Hm. I think I'd organize tiers this way:

S - has reached the Final at least twice and reaches the Third Stage consistently
A - reaches the Third Stage consistently
B - reaches the Second Stage consistently
C - has cleared the First Stage, but does not do so consistently
D - has a real chance of clearing the First Stage, but has not done so yet
F - has no chance of ever clearing any stage (joke competitors mostly)

This would put Keitaro in the B tier.

I pretty much organized the list based on overall skill level and off the course personality tbh, but yeah, that might be something I'll consider for the future

[Kane-Not-Kosugi]

I give him a solid B tier. He easily has the raw strength to move up to at LEAST an A tier, but since he can't break his streak of Stage 2 fails I think the highest I can let myself place him is at a B tier.

[Kane-Not-Kosugi]

Jan 27, 2021 0:08:52 GMT -5 azn said:

Jan 26, 2021 23:59:07 GMT -5 Ninja Relaxer said:

Hm. I think I'd organize tiers this way:

S - has reached the Final at least twice and reaches the Third Stage consistently
A - reaches the Third Stage consistently
B - reaches the Second Stage consistently
C - has cleared the First Stage, but does not do so consistently
D - has a real chance of clearing the First Stage, but has not done so yet
F - has no chance of ever clearing any stage (joke competitors mostly)

This would put Keitaro in the B tier.

I pretty much organized the list based on overall skill level and off the course personality tbh, but yeah, that might be something I'll consider for the future

In response to this, while off the course personality is great and all, it doesn't get you a kanzenseiha lol. Sounds a little harsh, I know, but I personally am just going off his skill/talent.

[tns8597]

Based on your tiering system, where would you put someone like Akira Omori or Ryo, who don't really fit in any of the categories you described above.


Omori reached the Final Stage multiple times and was consistent in his prime, but in the grand scheme of things you could argue he didn't even reach the Second Stage 'consistently' given that he's failed Stage 1 in like 80% of his attempts. By that logic he could either be S-tier or C-tier lol.

I defo think there needs to be an element of whether they displayed any indications of being a serious threat to Kanzenseiha (not just potential, they would've had to display it in their performances, otherwise we'd be here forever arguing over where people like Keitaro and Araki should go). Like, A-tier would have to comprise of a performance that was a near Kanzen or was indicative of the competitor being capable of total victory, either through a Final Stage attempt or a deep Third Stage, AS WELL AS being fairly consistent. The reason is that personally I don't think competitors like Naoki Iketani or like Masaaki Kobayashi, who have made Stage 3 multiple times but largely sucked a** in their attempts, deserve to be A-tier; examples of who I think should be in A-tier would be Takeda, Shiratori, Shingo during his prime, Kongu, Okuyama, etc. 

So A-tier would require consistency and display of Kanzen potential. B-tier would then consist of EITHER consistency, or display of Kanzen potential but these performances being few and far between, meaning that competitors falling under B-tier would either be Second or Third Stage regulars but if they did reach Stage 3 they'd always go out early and never really have a proper 'breakout' run (people like Terukazu Ishikawa who's performances just blend into the background), or have had one or two really strong runs but this being surrounded by constant Stage 1 failures.

I think something like this is a better method of being inclusive of all types of track records; so by that regard Omori and Ryo would fit into B-tier as both have shown Kanzen potential but are horrendously inconsistent. Keitaro would also fit into B-tier (to answer the question) as he displays the other characteristic; he's consistent in clearing Stage 1 but has never shown any inkling in competition that he'd be a serious threat to Kanzen; as I mentioned these tiering systems should be based on performances and not 'potential' otherwise we'd be here all day arguing.

[LusitaniaAngel313]

I'm going to say, until he manages to get to stage 3, he's a B tier. If he keeps it up he'll slip to C tier because of stagnation.

[PizzaKing57]

B-Tier but like I said many times beforehand, I still feel terribly broken that possibly a guy with the most experienced potential for the 3rd and Final stage, keeps continuing to fail the 2nd Stage and being the only person to ever do so without clearing at least ONCE that I wish he never had a problem with. After seeing him time out at the last obstacle in 36 being just seconds away from clearing, this should have finally been his opportunity to clear the 2nd Stage at last, but instead he just heartbreakingly regressed his performances by failing earlier and this time, he really crushed and broke my heart and so I'm praying every single day for him to reach Stage 3, no matter how difficult the 2nd Stage will be in the next tournament because he is the one who really deserved a shot at attempting the 3rd Stage more than a lot of other people.

Isa is an example, who did not deserve to reach the 3rd Stage because he showed no potential in beating it, as he couldn't even do the Cliffhanger in practise. Hioki isn't cut out for that stage either as he would've just failed the Cliffhanger again, given the ledges were moving this time. I'm also tired of seeing Sato in the 3rd Stage now, as he just variously keeps failing the Cliffhanger every single time, which is why seeing Keitaro and Araki in that stage is more exciting, as they've got easier potential to clear and go all the way. That duo is a lot more fun to watch than the Black Tigers duo.

And no, I'm not derailing this thread as it is Keitaro-themed whatsoever.

[tns8597]

You’re not derailing this thread but you’re just like a broken record at this point. Also yeah we get it you don’t like seeing Hioki and Sato because they always fail the Cliffhanger, and you’re upset that Tada gets digested.

Please, if you have nothing new to contribute to these threads, Keitaro related or not, then abstain from commenting the same repetitive stuff over and over again.

[azn]

Jan 27, 2021 3:20:47 GMT -5 Kane-Not-Kosugi said:

Jan 27, 2021 0:08:52 GMT -5 azn said:

I pretty much organized the list based on overall skill level and off the course personality tbh, but yeah, that might be something I'll consider for the future

In response to this, while off the course personality is great and all, it doesn't get you a kanzenseiha lol. Sounds a little harsh, I know, but I personally am just going off his skill/talent.

Gotchu, I mentioned that specific point to consider guys like Yamada, and Brent. Great competitors with notorious personalities. See what you mean though and tbh, Keitaro is just a blank in terms of personality lol

If it was someone like Yamada though, maybe personality would've fit better then

[thegreatluigi]

Just out of curiosity, why do you say there hasn't been a Keitaro thread? There's been at least two of them, and the second of those was something of a disaster (I blame that pillock who started it; was that poll really necessary?).

Anyway, originally I put him in C tier, but I reconsidered and moved him up one. He's one of the most consistent competitors on Stage One, and I don't doubt he's amazing on Stage Three. I think the next bit goes without saying...

[azn]

Jan 27, 2021 4:40:31 GMT -5 tns8597 said:

Based on your tiering system, where would you put someone like Akira Omori or Ryo, who don't really fit in any of the categories you described above.


Omori reached the Final Stage multiple times and was consistent in his prime, but in the grand scheme of things you could argue he didn't even reach the Second Stage 'consistently' given that he's failed Stage 1 in like 80% of his attempts. By that logic he could either be S-tier or C-tier lol.

I defo think there needs to be an element of whether they displayed any indications of being a serious threat to Kanzenseiha (not just potential, they would've had to display it in their performances, otherwise we'd be here forever arguing over where people like Keitaro and Araki should go). Like, A-tier would have to comprise of a performance that was a near Kanzen or was indicative of the competitor being capable of total victory, either through a Final Stage attempt or a deep Third Stage, AS WELL AS being fairly consistent. The reason is that personally I don't think competitors like Naoki Iketani or like Masaaki Kobayashi, who have made Stage 3 multiple times but largely sucked a** in their attempts, deserve to be A-tier; examples of who I think should be in A-tier would be Takeda, Shiratori, Shingo during his prime, Kongu, Okuyama, etc. 

So A-tier would require consistency and display of Kanzen potential. B-tier would then consist of EITHER consistency, or display of Kanzen potential but these performances being few and far between, meaning that competitors falling under B-tier would either be Second or Third Stage regulars but if they did reach Stage 3 they'd always go out early and never really have a proper 'breakout' run (people like Terukazu Ishikawa who's performances just blend into the background), or have had one or two really strong runs but this being surrounded by constant Stage 1 failures.

I think something like this is a better method of being inclusive of all types of track records; so by that regard Omori and Ryo would fit into B-tier as both have shown Kanzen potential but are horrendously inconsistent. Keitaro would also fit into B-tier (to answer the question) as he displays the other characteristic; he's consistent in clearing Stage 1 but has never shown any inkling in competition that he'd be a serious threat to Kanzen; as I mentioned these tiering systems should be based on performances and not 'potential' otherwise we'd be here all day arguing.

Performance over Potential, gotchu. Mentioned this on another criticism but I took into account guys like Yamada who have notorious reputations.

And you pretty much answered your question about Ryo and Akira toot

[tns8597]

Yeah I just think having a kind of checklist like that makes assigning tiers to examples like I just mentioned more objective. I'd also add that S-tier should comprise of competitors who've achieved Total Victory, and have consistently been well ahead of every other competitor for a number of competitions. By that regard, S-tier for me would only have Morimoto and Nagano imo; controversially I'd put Yuuji in A-tier (though high A-tier) just because despite being a two-time champion, there was never any stretch of competitions where he was by far the strongest competitor, like Nagano and Morimoto were and are, respectively. His Kanzens were often surrounded by Stage 1 and 2 failures.

Yamada is a difficult one; I'd put him in low A-tier pre-Sasuke 14 as he was quite consistent and also had a couple of near-Kanzen runs, the reason I say 'low' because he still had a fair few troubles with Stages 1 and 2 even back then. Between Sasuke 14-27, I'd go D-tier given that he never cleared Stage 1 despite coming close. Now? Defo F-tier..

[subtleagent]

I'd say B for being consistent in clearing Stage 1, but since he can't do Stage 2 for squat that's what keeps him out of a potential A.