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Post by m4tt3r0x on May 26, 2021 12:13:03 GMT -5
Kind of agree. The Grinding Ring was pretty brutal.
Though I don't want to underestimate the Gliding Ring. After doing 7 obstacles beforehand it's no guarantee you'll have the strength left to generate enough momentum to get to the mat. I could have seen someone like Takeda failing it. And Kong failed it as well. Unfortunately it was too easy compared to the obstacles that preceded it.
I wish they'd use the Pipe Slider from Sasuke Vietnam 2019. The one they use currently is almost as pathetic as the Gliding Ring imo...
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tns8597
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Post by tns8597 on May 26, 2021 15:38:39 GMT -5
Wasn’t the Grinding Ring a mistake? I thought the point was always for the ring to glide down the track (hence why it was angled downwards) but in Sasuke 21 it just didn’t which robbed Nagano of a potential Kanzen.
Agreed though, the Gliding Ring was a bit of a joke as a final obstacle as the whole reason why the Pipe Slider was so difficult was the pipe swinging back when attempting a jump. The Gliding Ring both had a stopper and facilitated momentum from swinging so never had that additional element of difficulty. Kong only failed it because he only took like one swing before attempting the jump. Everyone else cleared the jump by a landslide.
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Post by m4tt3r0x on May 26, 2021 15:41:36 GMT -5
Yes it was indeed a mistake. Not sure how since it had 4 tournaments to be tested properly.
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Post by subtleagent on May 26, 2021 17:08:46 GMT -5
My guess is Higuchi only changed it to the Gliding Ring because Stage 3 hadn't been beaten in 5 tournaments and they were legit panicking because they were thinking no one would reach the final. So they nerfed it to counter this. I personally think the Grinding Ring was more interesting and I feel like considering we got 6 people who made it there in 24 (yes the Rope Junction replaced the Kudari Lamp Grasper, but IMO neither obstacle was difficult enough to where it made much of a difference anyway) so it makes me wonder how many would've beaten it.
But as the regular Gliding Ring, it barely presented a threat and between the two failures on it, Kong like tns said didn't allow himself enough momentum and jumped too early (and the fact that he aced it the very next tournament proves this), and Tajima only failed it because he forgot about the stopper and otherwise would have arguably cleared it had he remembered to take it off the stopper. So no one ever really failed it based on stamina. Once you beat the Spider Flip you were essentially guaranteed a clear stamina-wise.
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Post by sackeshi on May 26, 2021 20:28:20 GMT -5
I hate when they get worried about people not making stage 4. I would rather go 10 tournaments without a final stage then have a superstar breakthrough vs makes course easier more clears, a premature total victory.
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zoran
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Post by zoran on May 27, 2021 4:08:51 GMT -5
I hate when they get worried about people not making stage 4. I would rather go 10 tournaments without a final stage then have a superstar breakthrough vs makes course easier more clears, a premature total victory. I do think its kinda wasteful though that they spend millions constructing the tower and a ton of manpower and it isn't even attempted in half the tournaments. Considering the shows financial and rating problems, it really isn't feasible or sustainable to do it this way. I think the live final stage system might have been better for them as there was guarantee the tower would not be wasted, since it was constructed a month later(Although I think it probably was constructed on the midoryama set for show which is even more wasteful imo), after there was a guarantee of a participant. I think they should keep doing or that way or the same without the live part. Maybe digitally insert the tower in the background if they can to add the awe factor.
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zoran
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Post by zoran on May 27, 2021 4:11:45 GMT -5
Yeah it was built on the midoryama set in 36 and 37 despite not being needed for a month later. Pretty stupid and wasteful spending imo.
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tns8597
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Post by tns8597 on May 27, 2021 4:24:25 GMT -5
While I think the Live Final is cool and all, because of how much organization and spending is required to set up a tower that won't be used, then another tower a month later at Yokohama Brick House, it creates unnecessary pressure for there to be a Final Stage attempt. This is the reason Sasuke 37 was watered down after Stage 1. Apart from the Rolling Log which was cancelled due to weather, everything else was made easier on Stages 2 and 3 because they were worried no one would attempt the Final Stage (after Stage 1's unexpected results, particularly Morimoto's fail). Without that additional pressure, the results would've been worse obvs but I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, in fact it's better to see a few more shock fails than competitors doing well just because the course was made artificially easier in almost every way, shape and form (Stage 2 time limit, Backstream, Reverse Conveyer, Cliffhanger, VLK, etc.). But for Inui the prospect of no Final Stage attempts was out of the question given how much he'd spent on two towers. Honestly, the Stage 2 in 38 probably wouldn't have been a thing if they'd decided to do another Live Final (they probably wouldn't have made the time limit so stringent) because of how risk-averse it makes the producers.
And r/e the Gliding Ring, I think having a ring-based obstacle is a cool idea but I personally would've made the track straight so that competitors have to slide it across the track just like the Pipe Slider but harder, and fundamentally not have a stopper at the end of the track because that makes it infinitely easier to execute the jump.
Honestly, since Sasuke 17 every (attempted) final Stage 3 obstacle has been rubbish. The Gliding Ring either didn't work or was too easy, the Bar Glider had a stopper which was a function of trying to force a Kanzen that tournament, and the most recent Pipe Slider is so anticlimactic. It's a shame they never utilised the Flying Bar as the final obstacle in its full form; would be the ultimate bit of suspense appropriate for the end of such a grueling stage.
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Post by subtleagent on May 27, 2021 14:27:27 GMT -5
Yeah, while a sliding track may work for the Circle Slider (which was in Stage 1 and had a springboard which works differently from a trampoline so there was more than just grabbing the ring and sliding to the end). For the Gliding Ring, all it really did was just make a guaranteed clear unless you did something silly. Personally I didn't mind the Bar Glider, but I do feel it would have worked better if the slanted part was first and the straight part was after that, hence there would've been no need for a stopper.
Obviously though the full fledged Flying Bar would've been fun to watch instead. And yeah the current Pipe Slider is garbage, I figure the gap was reduced due to H&S breathing down their necks so I can forgive this a little bit, but honestly why not buff the obstacle another way instead? Like lengthen the track or add drops like ANW 1's Pipe Slider? Inui's been rippin' off ideas from ANW since 2015 anyway.
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tns8597
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Post by tns8597 on May 27, 2021 14:43:20 GMT -5
They need to put the Flying Bar back as the final obstacle for the next renewal. They did it for the renewal in 25, but it was unattempted and then nerfed to the Bar Glider in 27 for the exact reason that the latter was much easier. ANW and several other international competitions still have the Flying Bar as the final obstacle for a reason; it creates suspense, it’s so exciting to know that no matter how far you’ve come you can still throw it all away from one slightly out of place transition. With the current Pipe Slider there’s just none of that ‘what if’ (before anyone mentions Yuuji’s fail, it was a freak accident as no one had failed the obstacle that way in 20 years....). A clear is almost guaranteed once someone made it past the VLK, which just isn’t how it should be.
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Post by subtleagent on May 27, 2021 16:40:20 GMT -5
I think honestly Inui spends too much time buffing the Cliffhanger to the point where the rest of Stage 3 is neglected. Like I said before, the M9 era generally had the Cliffhanger be the big cheese of the stage, but the other obstacles were still mostly difficult enough to where the front half was still taking out the weaker ones and occasionally stronger competitors due to their general difficulty, while the back half was where the stronger ones ran out of stamina and were less forgiving of error. It all came together, but nowadays it's generally down to the Cliffhanger.
No one failed the front half from 28 ~ 31, and the only ones who did from 32 ~ 38 either had no chance of clearing anyway or failed due to malfunctions. The only "pro" that was taken out barring malfunctions pre-Cliffhanger was Hioki in 35 really. All the Flying Bar fails in 32 and 33 were due to the rain (save for Suzuki and maybe Nagasaki) and the washed out lighting combined with an attached wire that they had no way to train for. 34 had Suzuki and Obata who weren't very strong on Stage 3 anyway, while 36 had Ben Toyer who was a complete noob and Darvish who had no chance of clearing Stage 3 in high hell anyway. 38 has Isa fail the Flying Bar also, but that's because the padding ripped and dropped the bar.
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Post by sackeshi on May 29, 2021 4:52:57 GMT -5
The glove rule on stage 2 that you couldn't wear them once you got to the spider walk was stupid and Yamada shouldn't have been disqualified. Whatever minor advantage wearing gloves gives on the spider walk surely doesn't warrant disqualifying contestants.
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tns8597
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Post by tns8597 on May 29, 2021 6:13:19 GMT -5
I agree the rule was a bit far fetched especially as chalk on bare hands is grippier than gloves from my experience.
But the reason I disagree that Yamada shouldn’t have been disqualified is that as controversial a rule it is, Yamada very obviously kept his gloves on for the purpose of cheating, likely to save time not having to take them off and apply spray etc. He knew about the rule as he adhered to it in all his previous attempts and saw every other competitor do the same. So his claim that he didn’t know about the rule made no sense and was clearly a lie, this being the first of two lies that he used to try and blag his way through to Stage 3, the second that ‘the buzzer didn’t work’ when he timed out on his second attempt that he shouldn’t have been granted in the first place.
Not to be a dick but I’m genuinely glad they didn’t let him through that tournament, given that if they had, there was a likely chance he could’ve achieved Total Victory through lying and cheating, which would’ve been really damaging for Sasuke’s reputation.
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Post by subtleagent on May 29, 2021 12:19:40 GMT -5
True, and the ironic thing is he would've had an easy trip to Stage 3 had he just taken the damn gloves off. Though I really don't see him kanzening in 12. Even if he beat the Pipe Slider (which I'm hesitant to say he would have), he likely wouldn't have beaten the Final Stage. If even Nagano and Bunpei couldn't do it in one shot (Yamada being slower and less agile than both of them) then no way Yamada would have one-shotted it
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tns8597
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Post by tns8597 on May 29, 2021 12:30:11 GMT -5
Debatable. He cleared with 3.5 seconds left, which could’ve easily been lost by him taking off the gloves and applying spray. My hunch is that he got spooked by the ten second reduction in time limit so he just thought he could get away with it.
And yeah I guess you’re right; I think he would’ve at least made the Pipe Slider, and could’ve possibly cleared given that he did admittedly get super unlucky in both of his last attempts. Yamada wouldn’t have been that quick on the Spider Climb but I think he could’ve made up for it on the Tsuna Nobori given that since his near miss in Sasuke 3 he’d spend hours every day climbing ropes.
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Post by subtleagent on May 29, 2021 12:55:26 GMT -5
True, Yamada was infamous for being slow even in his prime, and unlike Morimoto he didn't seem to be able to hit the gas when necessary. And considering in his second run he got to the button and only grazed it without pressing it it would've probs been very close.
Then again Shingo failed an entirely similar Stage 2 in 13 that he cleared in 12 (though in 13's case I reckon Shingo just got unlucky when he did his usual under the wall dash and he did his trademark jump the Balance Tank from far away which he took a bit of time to recover from. And he did struggle badly with the Wall Lift in 12 as he was shown spending herds of time squeezing under the third wall) so I suppose it all depends on what technique you use.
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Post by Kane-Not-Kosugi on Jun 2, 2021 17:40:47 GMT -5
You guys put too much hype on Yoshiyuki. That's the opinion LOL.
He's very strong and easily the most talented of the Black Tigers, but all of your assumptions on how he'll do in the future are based on a hypothetical of what his run could have been in 38. Considering he even made the 2nd flip on the Dimension, he's top 3 in Japan with Yusuke and Tada (who I also think you guys are sleeping on for whatever reason). Do I think he's capable of clearing the Dimension in the future? Yes, absolutely. But does that mean he'd clear Stage 3 and then Kanzen? We can't say.
I've been kinda quiet here cuz every thread has some sort of worship of Yoshiyuki for being "the most hardcore athlete the show has scene" and "freakishly strong" and whatnot. I do think big things are coming in his future, but until then I think it's a little much to treat him as if he's the savior of SASUKE or the best of all time.
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Post by m4tt3r0x on Jun 2, 2021 21:17:33 GMT -5
No one is really treating him as the "Savior of Sasuke." People are excited about him because he has been around for two tournaments and has shown insane potential. If you watch Yamada's videos last year of him training with or versus Yusuke then it's pretty obvious he is the closest to being his match currently on the show. He can at least almost match Yusuke on Stage 4 (on camera) and he more likely would have cleared in 38 (again based on footage recorded multiple times of him shredding the Cliffhanger and VL). He was top 2 in 38 more accurately and he only even fell because of a wet obstacle.
Tada's good but I think his performance on the Final dampened things a bit in 37. He could still win though.
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Post by subtleagent on Jun 2, 2021 21:21:34 GMT -5
Here's one Nagano became an All-Star too soon. Not that I don't think he deserved to be an All-Star and he very much earned it, but they only named him for making it to the Pipe Slider in 9 when IMO it would've made more sense to name him one in 11 when he made the final. By the former logic Kobayashi could've been named an All-Star for making it to the Pipe Slider in 11 (in his debut no less). Again not trying to devalue Nagano's accomplishments, but I really think they jumped the gun with him in 9 and just ended up lucky.
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tns8597
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Post by tns8597 on Jun 3, 2021 3:28:51 GMT -5
Yeah agreed with the above. Especially given that he failed Stage 1 in his first two tries before his breakout in Sasuke 9. Hence for all we know he could've just got really lucky, followed by further sub-par performances (kind of like Akiyama though him being the only champion alone justified his position as an All-Star, regardless of his later performances. Nagano by comparison had one decent Stage 3 run under his belt). No doubt the producers probably got cold feet after Nagano's early fail in Sasuke 10 as this may have implied the above, but luckily for them this was obvs followed by his three straight Final Stage runs. Honestly I think the main reason for his All-Star title at the time was his association with Yamada which was heavily documented in Sasuke 9.
And yeah Shinji would've been a good fit for an All-Star but his performances just weren't good enough to be frank. Given that Takeda filled the whole '3rd Stage guy' role in the group, any new addition would've had to have made the Final Stage as well as being fairly consistent, and also having a unique and interesting career/personality that TBS could market. Shinji would've been a cool addition with his unique garbage man job and outfits, and I think he would've been seriously considered had he made the Final in 11 or 14, but ultimately they went with Bunpei because of his better track record and also his 'Shiratori Shrine' was much more of a novelty. Kobayashi by comparison not only didn't become All-Star but ended up getting cut in half of his runs due to him failing Stage 1 in most of his attempts.
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