|
Post by Kane-Not-Kosugi on Jan 5, 2021 16:35:55 GMT -5
Gonna argue that the fact that he's accomplished so much in such a small amount of time is what makes him the GOAT. It's probably my Nagano bias speaking, but I just don't think that he has quite enough longevity to be the GOAT. If he gets a 3rd kanzen, it throws all of the question away. I feel you, Nagano is still my all time favorite competitor. But I think considering Yusuke is only turning 30 in December longevity won't be a huuuuuuge problem for a while, so maybe your mind will change. Not to mention Yusuke is now in 2nd place for Final Stage appearances in such a short amount of time, only behind Nagano by 1 appearance. He makes the Final Stage again he ties with him, which I find pretty impressive tbh.
|
|
tns8597
Jordan Jovtchev
100%
Posts: 1,282
|
Post by tns8597 on Jan 5, 2021 17:23:29 GMT -5
Another unpopular opinion: Kawaguchi never was, at any point, the 'second in command' to Morimoto. Plus, there is just so much of a skill gap between the two.
|
|
|
Post by LusitaniaAngel313 on Jan 5, 2021 18:11:22 GMT -5
There's a REASON why I call him #Casual. Tomo is WAY too overrated.
|
|
|
Post by PizzaKing57 on Jan 5, 2021 18:15:25 GMT -5
I unfortunately have to say that Hioki is a bit too overrated just because of how he always gets low numbers, but has never come close to clearing the Cliffhanger, when there are lots of other promising challengers like Ryo and Tada who can beat it more easily and reach the Final Stage. I was also a bit annoyed in this tournament, that he was given too much hype than anyone else (save for Darvish, ABC-Z and Snow Man).
I would've also agreed with you that Kawaguchi was overrated as well because of him mostly getting the penultimate spot #99 in this era of SASUKE but as he finally got a lower number of #96 this time, he's not that much however since he failed the Warped Wall for an unprecedented second time, he will have to get an even lower number of something like #93 in the next tournament.
|
|
|
Post by Ninja Relaxer on Jan 5, 2021 18:26:13 GMT -5
Seems like there's a huge skill gap between Morimoto and EVERYONE at this point. The gap never seemed quite so large when Nagano and Urushihara were the front-runners. Right now, though, it feels like no one really deserves the #99 spot. Maybe Urushihara simply based on past accomplishments. But Tada might be the only one you can make a strong case for based on current potential, or possibly Yoshiyuki Yamamoto... Everyone else seems to have peaked.
|
|
zoran
Jessie Graff
Posts: 1,023
Member is Online
|
Post by zoran on Jan 5, 2021 19:03:35 GMT -5
Another unpopular opinion: Kawaguchi never was, at any point, the 'second in command' to Morimoto. Plus, there is just so much of a skill gap between the two. You'd have to give credit to his Sasuke 35 performance though.
|
|
|
Post by Kane-Not-Kosugi on Jan 5, 2021 20:18:38 GMT -5
Kawaguchi is very talented and strong, but this era never HAD a strong 2nd in command.
Nagano had Takeda and Shingo as his 2nd/3rd
Urushihara had Kanno
Only now does Yusuke have someone who's genuinely 2nd to him (Tada). Before that, Tomo only had 99 because he made the Final Stage, but it was very clear in a way both everybody and nobody was 2nd fiddle to Yusuke.
|
|
tns8597
Jordan Jovtchev
100%
Posts: 1,282
|
Post by tns8597 on Jan 6, 2021 4:28:32 GMT -5
I'd honestly have to disagree and say it was, for all his horrendous behind the scenes doings, Drew.
Drew made it the farthest in Sasuke 32, made it even farther than Morimoto did in 33; Tomo and Drew tied in 34 and Tomo made it slightly farther in 35, but you can't ignore the fact that he was clearing Stages 1 and 2 with inhumanely quick times while Kawaguchi almost failed Stage 2 in 35. By comparison, Drew never came close to timing out except for in 32 which tbf was because it was wet. I also saw on his Instagram (before it was taken down ofc) that he had been training on ridiculously hard Vertical Limits with jumps, so there's no doubt that he would've been a serious contender for the Final Stage in 36/37. Tomo by comparison, except for 35, has had performances largely undeserving of a #99. His performance in 36 should've also given him a downgrade for the following competition but it didn't. Also, yes he made the Final Stage but his performance absolutely sucked a** so I don't think that's anything to go by.
So overall I do think that this era (until Tada came along) had the three big hitters: Drew, Kawaguchi, and Morimoto, though I'd say Drew's performances gave him more distinction in terms of speed, overall athleticism, and clearing tough obstacles on his first attempt. Tomo's performances (bar SASUKE 30) never really stood out to me as anything greater than, say, Hioki or Jun Sato.
|
|
|
Post by LusitaniaAngel313 on Jan 6, 2021 4:49:00 GMT -5
I'm outright going to say Tomo literally has NO CHANCE to kanzen. I mean yeah so many are in this club, Takeda, Shingo, sorry kiddos. But Tomo is just degrading on himself.
|
|
tns8597
Jordan Jovtchev
100%
Posts: 1,282
|
Post by tns8597 on Jan 6, 2021 5:23:03 GMT -5
I personally never understood the obsession with him; like yeah he's strong competitor in the same way that the other Stage 3 regulars are. Like he failed Stage 1 in SASUKE 33, yet still got #98 in the following tournament, and would've probably got #99 again had it not been for Yuuji threatening to retire.
Yes he came second to Morimoto in SASUKE 35, but his Vertical Limit attempt was rubbish and that performance also gets somewhat negated by how every other attempt in the following two tournaments were way better than his, as well as him being the only victim of the first UCCH jump in the next tournament. And now he's failed Stage 1 twice in a row.
|
|
|
Post by GlobalNinjaFan on Jan 6, 2021 8:32:33 GMT -5
I personally never understood the obsession with him; like yeah he's strong competitor in the same way that the other Stage 3 regulars are. Like he failed Stage 1 in SASUKE 33, yet still got #98 in the following tournament, and would've probably got #99 again had it not been for Yuuji threatening to retire. Yes he came second to Morimoto in SASUKE 35, but his Vertical Limit attempt was rubbish and that performance also gets somewhat negated by how every other attempt in the following two tournaments were way better than his, as well as him being the only victim of the first UCCH jump in the next tournament. And now he's failed Stage 1 twice in a row. Fully agree. Tomo is in a weird spot to me, wherein he's not good enough to achieve total victory (or even realistically clear Stage 3 in his current state), but is just slightly more interesting than the other "Stage 3 regulars", which are Hioki and Sato. They keep hyping him up as the "second in command" and that may have been true at one point, but the gap has always been huge.
|
|
tns8597
Jordan Jovtchev
100%
Posts: 1,282
|
Post by tns8597 on Jan 6, 2021 9:09:50 GMT -5
GlobalNinjaFan I think their rationale was this: between Sasuke 30-36 (before Tada established himself as the true second best), only three competitors made the Final Stage: Tomo, Ryo, and Morimoto.
Ryo obviously declined shortly after so he was out of the running, and Drew was shaping up to be the most promising contender at the time, but TBS obviously have their inevitable bias against foreign competitors vs domestic, and fundamentally Drew didn’t make the Final. Another candidate was Yuuji but he never performed that well throughout the Rising era and as I understand he wanted to be kept out of the spotlight to avoid pressure.
So they went with Kawaguchi because he was the only other Rising-era Finalist that wasn’t constantly failing Stage 1 (which I fundamentally don’t agree with as his Final Stage attempt was rubbish, thus not really being a great indicator of his actual Kanzen potential), he was ever so slightly better than other domestic competitors like Jun Sato and Asa at Stage 3 (though I emphasise the term ‘ever so slightly’ as he’s never been a real threat to repeat his Sasuke 30 success), and there’s the obvious domestic vs international argument. I don’t agree with this approach entirely but I’m just rationalising and providing potential reasoning behind TBS’ decision.
I never liked how they would almost never interview Drew and constantly digest his runs just by virtue of the fact that he was a foreigner despite him being the strongest competitor behind Morimoto at the time; obvs now that opinion has changed and I don’t care for him but I did think it was a tad disrespectful.
|
|
|
Post by GlobalNinjaFan on Jan 6, 2021 11:22:36 GMT -5
Ryo obviously declined shortly after so he was out of the running, and Drew was shaping up to be the most promising contender at the time, but TBS obviously have their inevitable bias against foreign competitors vs domestic, and fundamentally Drew didn’t make the Final. Another candidate was Yuuji but he never performed that well throughout the Rising era and as I understand he wanted to be kept out of the spotlight to avoid pressure. So they went with Kawaguchi because he was the only other Rising-era Finalist that wasn’t constantly failing Stage 1 (which I fundamentally don’t agree with as his Final Stage attempt was rubbish, thus not really being a great indicator of his actual Kanzen potential), he was ever so slightly better than other domestic competitors like Jun Sato and Asa at Stage 3 (though I emphasise the term ‘ever so slightly’ as he’s never been a real threat to repeat his Sasuke 30 success), and there’s the obvious domestic vs international argument. I don’t agree with this approach entirely but I’m just rationalising and providing potential reasoning behind TBS’ decision. I understand why they chose to promote Tomo (it made sense from an editing point of view), I was just speaking from the POV of a fan who has followed these tournaments in real time, seeing the rise and fall of "major" competitors. At this point, I'm just a little tired and jaded that people who got so much attention for so long (Asa, Kanno, Tomo, Anastase, Hioki and Sato being the main ones), never "lived up to the legend". Whether through a string of mediocre, predictable performances, or being forced to retire due to other factors, the group that was majorly hyped from around Sasuke 29-Sasuke 34 (and beyond for some) ended up doing pretty much nothing to advance the show. Morimoto is essentially the ONLY one from that group that actually put in the legwork and made a lasting impact. From 2013 to today, these competitors have essentially made zero progress on the course, despite having had an insane amount of time to perfect obstacles and train for Stage 3. Meanwhile, the majority of truly exciting, paradigm shifting runs came from people who were either considered "past their prime", or were never considered at all. Runs like: - Yuuji in 36 and 37 - Ryo in 36 - Isa Yoshinori and Yamamoto Yoshiyuki in 37/38 - Tada and Rene in 37. - Jessie Graff in 34 and 37. Simply put, I'm done getting excited for people who always end up letting me down. That's not me being mean, it's just me learning not to get my hopes up, and to look further afield than just "the usual suspects". If the last 2-3 tournaments have shown us anything, it's that the unexpected should always be expected when it comes to Sasuke (except for Morimoto, he'll probably achieve another Total Victory or two).
|
|
tns8597
Jordan Jovtchev
100%
Posts: 1,282
|
Post by tns8597 on Jan 6, 2021 12:48:41 GMT -5
Totally agree.
I think Tomo, Hioki, Asa etc getting ridiculous amounts of screen time (like a fluff piece for EVERY run) is politics more than anything and having a special ‘in’ with Inui. I get that it’s annoying as hell though, especially when the fluff pieces all just cover the same thing every time; like for Hioki it’s his wife and kids, and him training; it’s really never anything beyond that. And I get that what makes it even more annoying is how fluff pieces are supposed to spotlight a particular competitor who’s meant to do well or like have a redemption run after a long period of decline, but those who were often covered in excessive detail end up just failing the same obstacle as in the previous tournament. Take Asa; the guy got a huge amount of screen time from 28-31 yet failed the Cliffhanger every single f***ing time, while Shinya Kishimoto had a breakout run and near Final Stage attempt in 30 yet got two of his three runs cut in their entirety.
I just wish Inui would show those who are worth being shown, like the rookies, the surprises, the breakouts, the redemptions etc. and frickin digest the ‘stagnant’ competitors, because what’s the point in giving them more screen time if they’re just going to deliver the same piece of cake every single time.
|
|
|
Post by Ninja Relaxer on Jan 6, 2021 13:30:06 GMT -5
I think the producers highlight certain competitors because Sasuke is a story as much as it is a competition. You have to sell personalities, and once you've invested in a competitor's story by giving them a few fluff pieces, you have to carry through to a certain extent and continue featuring them even after they have a string of disappointing results. It's only after someone is obviously in a permanent, non-recoverable decline (like Kanno) that the producers seem to back away and look for new "talent" to highlight. I think they continue to feature Hioki largely because his story is so compelling: He's genuinely likable, and his kids are so darn cute. The producers are pretty good at selecting the best up-and-comers, but sometimes they get it wrong. Then they're stuck highlighting perennial losers at the expense of the promising newcomers. That seems to be a feature of the Rising era, in fact. Most of the "stars" they've featured have stagnated in Stages 2 or 3. Of course, that's partly because Stage 3 is so damn hard in its current iteration...
As I've said elsewhere, the producers are in a tough spot right now. There's a definite lack of consistency and potential among the current field of competitors.
|
|
tns8597
Jordan Jovtchev
100%
Posts: 1,282
|
Post by tns8597 on Jan 6, 2021 13:41:48 GMT -5
Ninja Relaxer I agree with that but I’d argue it’s more interesting to see how a competitor’s personality and life changes along with their devotion to Sasuke and performances.
That’s why I find Morimoto’s story so compelling. He transitioned from a nerdy superfan kid to the greatest and most formidable force that we’ve ever seen on the show. How he went from just wanting to be on the show to training tirelessly every day to achieve his childhood dream. And you could see his training pay off as he went from doing well ‘for a kid’ to doing better than anyone’s ever done in the history of the show. It was also interesting to see him as a school kid, college student, and a working professional, yet never give up on Sasuke; in fact you could argue his Sasuke career progressed alongside his general life which is refreshing.
The reason why I found Hioki and particularly Asa’s stories so boring is because it would always centre around them training for the same obstacles that they’d continuously end up failing. It was almost as though there was no progression in their story as well as their performances, with the exception of Asa becoming a father but even this wasn’t capitalised on enough compared to him once again training for but failing to complete the Crazy Cliffhanger.
Tomohiro’s initial story was quite interesting; how he became a rebel over his parents’ separation and his love for Sasuke bringing them back together, as well as his transition from a truck driver to a climbing shoe manufacturer director; but even here the impact of this story is limited because we don’t see that pivotal shift reflected by his performances on Sasuke. It would’ve been more exciting if, say, his career transition inspired him to become a much better climber to understand the industry more, resulting in him clearing the UCCH and VLK.
|
|
|
Post by Ninja Relaxer on Jan 6, 2021 14:02:41 GMT -5
Well, I think it's safe to say that the producers _wished_ that Kawaguchi's Sasuke results had progressed alongside his personal narrative. But they obviously have no control over that. They promoted Kawaguchi in the hopes that he would continue to make progress, maybe even achieve kanzenseiha, because he looked like a promising competitor at the time. Their hopes obviously didn't pan out (and probably never will), but once they started promoting him, they pretty much had no choice but to continue doing so until it became untenable. We've reached that point now, I'd say.
|
|
|
Post by wrestlingfan55 on Jan 11, 2021 19:31:15 GMT -5
It was right to reduce Stage 4's time limit after Sasuke 22.
|
|
|
Post by PsychoDelusion on Jan 11, 2021 20:45:39 GMT -5
A lot of interesting things have been said in this thread and I want to give my 2 cents
First of all Takeda stats wise is far from overrated. He holds the record for most consecutive Stage 3 appearances (tied with Jun Sato) for a reason. He was a Stage 1 & 2 monster in his prime, before we got the Levis and the Drews and all he lacked was a proper Pipe Slider technique. Out of all his attempts, he was never even close to sticking the landing but despite that he has been tremendously successful. His cocky attitude at times is really a part of his charm. When you see the cocky smile, you know he's going to do something dumb (especially in the RISING era). Also he had the record of not failing Stage 1 more than 2 times in a row up until this year (even though he cleared despite the DSQ). So in my head, Takeda is alright.
Kane is far from overrated as well and the fact that he competed only 5 times and left even before reaching his peak, just adds to the part of his "legend". I was not convinced that he'd ever be Kanzenseiha material but he would definitely be a consistent Stage 3 competitor. These were different times. Consistency in SASUKE was way harder than it is nowadays. Apart from the ever changing courses, people were still in the dark in terms of SASUKE specific training compared to today. With all these considered and the fact that Kane never failed Stage 1 makes him one of the best competitors to ever compete (not to mention that he was a monster for a celebrity, compared to the beanpoles we get now like Darvish, ABC-Z and Snow Man).
Shiratori not being impactful or influential enough is also not a sentiment that I find true, but I think this opinion has gained popularity due to him stopping on his tracks ever since SASUKE 21. For his stature and proportions, Shiratori was a tremendous competitor. If you rewatch his Stage 3 performances, not many (if not anyone) were as explosive as he was on the course. He was releasing a brute force that you barely saw with the likes of Nagano. His one-foot jump on the trampoline is yet to be emulated by anyone else (a trademark which blew the crowd and the competitors away when it happened) and don't forget SASUKE 15 where he made it further than anyone else bar Takeda having suffered from a heat exhaustion. Add these to his multiple injuries and his advanced age and you start to see why he was an All-Star. I like to believe that they were either contemplating adding him or Kobayashi as the final All-Star and I'm glad they stuck with him despite me having a soft spot for Shinji. Shiratori apart from his shrine was loved in Inba so he had a crowd behind him. He ticked all the boxes to be worth of the All-Star name.
Yusuke, as much as I find him bland and blatantly pushed by Inui has done enough to be the GOAT statistically. Nagano will always be the GOAT in terms of keeping SASUKE alive that long and overall being an integral part of the show. He was the first truly gifted competitor the show had. Noone else has beaten courses with the grace and effortlessness Nagano had. Yusuke competes in an era that if you are very tiny with insane forearms and grip, you're guaranteed a great result. His only opponent is the 1st Stage and even that is absolutely static. Minimal to no changes every year and a wall that any height can beat it with the correct technique. Before the RISING era, Stage 3 especially was way more balanced to all competitors. Nowadays it's a miracle if we see a tall guy like Kawaguchi or Rene clear. This absolutely does not discredit Yusuke's track record but had he competed in earlier SASUKEs with the knowledge and the courses that existed back then, he'd struggle alot more. The gap between Yusuke and everyone else is because almost noone has the tiny proportions Yusuke does. Ryo is too inconistent, Keitaro can't clear Stage 2 and Yuuji's time is running out. Hopefully they will address this (they're not going to) for the future so everyone can get a more fair chance. It makes no sense to have 2 fingertip oriented obstacles next to each other, let alone together in one stage. Even if Hioki or Sato beat the Cliffhanger at some point, they'd perish instantly in the Vertical Limit. It's a course that doesn't cater to most bodies anymore. Finally Yusuke only has 2 victories before the age of 30 because he's been competing since forever. Nagano started competing at 28. It's a huge difference. (And I've expressed my opinion on Nagano on the fact that he has underachieved in another thread before I get called a Nagano fanboy. It's just that I've studied and seen all eras meticulously, not to mention that Nagano sort of falls victim to the same body category, just not as dominantly as the others).
Kawaguchi is a weird case. I agree on the fact that half the time he didn't deserve #99. He makes many mental mistakes and recently he's been droughted alot. At the same time though he was the last competitor of his body size to reach the Final Stage (till Rene came) which was a huge achievement. He had also come from nowhere in SASUKE 30 so yeah, the production was probably hoping he'd keep maintaining that standard. SASUKE is not as "open" as it used to be though, with celebrities, gag competitors and many more successful competitors getting invited back tournament after tournament after tournament. Feels like this is happening more than ever under Inui. Maybe he's afraid to take drastic measures in reshuffling the deck especially after how SASUKE 28's reception but I believe it's the dominant factor on why the field has become so static. It's just politics though, nothing we can do about it, or anyone in fact.
TL;DR My post is an unpopular opinion by itself.
|
|
|
Post by PizzaKing57 on Jan 12, 2021 9:19:43 GMT -5
Keitaro can't clear Stage 2 Why the flip are you saying that for?! He has to clear the 2nd Stage, it's so important as he's STILL the only Morimoto Generation member to never make it that far and that the 3rd Stage plays to his advantage.
|
|