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Post by subtleagent on Sept 30, 2021 14:45:13 GMT -5
Perhaps you're right. I mean 29's Stage 2 was made to stop him in particular (between the Iron Paddler, Backstream, and Tackle stamina draining obstacles really were his weakness, then again everyone essentially figured out the Iron Paddler in no time so I'm sure he would have too). But if you ask me I think losing in USA vs. Japan was his first major blow to his competitive morale, but his fail in 31 really compounded that to where it was clear he had a heap of mental blocks. Which makes me happy he was able to reverse that from 34 onwards to where he's at least able to survive Stage 2.
I do agree on Kawaguchi though. Bar 35 (and even then that one was overshadowed by Morimoto and later Tada, Yuuji, and Ryo amongst others) his performances weren't really that great afterwards, or at least they didn't stand out. Speaking of 35 I'd argue he got lucky there too thanks to how lenient Stage 2's time limit was between 33 and 36.
Another unpopular opinion I have is that age was catching up to Kong. My reason for this being he began consistently having trouble with the Warped Wall (27, 31, and 34 took him 2 tries minimum and in 27 he took 4 as well as 3 Half-Pipe Attack attempts which would've timed him out had it not been for 27's lenient time limit) and did you see how gutted he was before he failed the Reverse Conveyor? Definitely not the same Kong who tore 29's Backstream a new a*****e. I still think his accomplishments were impressive, but I can see why he chose to retire (like Nagano he didn't want to Yamada his career).
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Post by dakohosu on Sept 30, 2021 15:28:59 GMT -5
Yeah from 31-33 it really felt like Yuuji was fighting the course rather than having a good time and being much more spirited like he was before and is now. Not sure if you know but in 31 he kept trying to scale the wall after timing out and got asked by production to stop in fear of hurting himself, this being an example of what I mean by mentally trying to ‘fight’ against his losses rather than enjoying it.
And yeah a lot of people defend Kawaguchi by quoting his run in 35 but given that half of the Stage 3 cohort in 36 did better than he did it sort of defeats that argument about him being the second best behind Morimoto.
And yeah I agree about the Kong thing but I’m still impressed though that he managed to reach Stage 3 twice during the Rising era, especially in 29 beating an OP Stage 2 with the fastest times in his late 30s no less; most of the All-Stars were well into their declines by that point. I’d say after he hit 40 (after Sasuke 31) he really started to take a bit of a nose dive, and I think it was his Reverse Conveyer fail that led him to retire as it basically consolidated that his stamina was waning due to age. Still though, not as bad a decline as some other competitors we’ve seen; not as steep nor as early as most (eg Shingo).
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Post by subtleagent on Oct 1, 2021 21:26:41 GMT -5
If I were to say who Morimoto's second was it would be Drew from 32 - 36 and then either Tada or Yoshiyuki now. Kawaguchi I would probably rank 3rd or 4th, though after these last two tournaments I might even say he's out of the top 10. I actually made a SASUKE and KUNOICHI chart ranking everyone who competed in at least 10 tournaments of either show and he came in around 14th (I might modify the list so his placing isn't absolute), but he never came in at #2 even in the post-RISING era.
Yeah all of 24's finalists (except Hashimoto who wasn't even 30 when he retired) really beat back aging (counting Yuuji), and to an extent Takeda has too. Kong and Takeda were especially impressive longevity wise seeing as both debuted in SASUKE 5 and delivered a** kicking performances even into their declining years.
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Post by dakohosu on Oct 2, 2021 4:43:47 GMT -5
Yeah agreed. I'd say the top 5 in that period were Morimoto, Drew, Kawaguchi, Sato, then Hioki. This is obvs considering that Yuuji and Tada were still failing Stage 1 up until that point and Yoshiyuki hadn't even competed; now I'd probably say Morimoto, then a tie between Yoshiyuki, Tada, and Yuuji (as all three have shown they were at least somewhat capable of clearing Stage 3), and then Sato as he's probably the strongest competitor who realistically doesn't have a shot of beating Stage 3. I initially put Tomohiro's fail in 36 down to bad luck (as has been the case with a lot of these 180 transitions) but in these last two tournaments he's basically consolidated his decline to the point that even if he does reach Stage 3 I can't see him getting past the Cliffhanger anymore, especially the Dimension or whatever new variant we'll see in 39.
I'd say Kong's longevity probably comes out top given that his first and last Stage 3 attempts were almost 15 years apart, especially how he still looked on top form on a much much harder Stage 3 despite pushing 40. It was his ability to adapt to the course changes (that were obvs massive over those 15 years) and still reach the Cliffhanger. The only tangible sign he showed of ageing was his Reverse Conveyer failure, and at that point he decided to retire.
Takeda I'm not as inclined to say the same for, given that the current Stage 1 is arguably easier than the Shin-Sasuke version, yet he's still less consistent and more prone to failing it than he was before. Granted him coming back from an injury and clearing the stage at 45 years old was bloody impressive (and I have to admit I wasn't expecting him to do that well), but he's still repeatedly shown that he's not the Takeda he was before by his Stage 2 failures, and again the Stage 2s he's attempted weren't really any harder than the ones he easily cleared on Shin-Sasuke. I also think he'd have been be eaten alive by Stage 3 had he made it there. In addition to ageing I just don't think he ever properly recovered from his hiatus. I wonder how he would've done in 26-27 and beyond had he not taken a break. Not saying that he shouldn't have; he's got his own life and isn't bound to Sasuke but I can't but help wonder.
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Post by subtleagent on Oct 3, 2021 16:58:28 GMT -5
Ah, another one. Ryo's performance in 36 was much more impressive than his Final Stage runs in 27 and 30.
27 of course had the lot of nerfs (mainly in Stage 3) and rewatching his Final Stage run, yes he did get close to the top, but that Final Stage had that 15 foot staircase that cut back on some of the height and watching him he didn't look like he was going very fast. Perhaps that was just another result of how rigged for a win 27's course was. But, even Yuuji who went after him was blazing up the rope.
And then came 30 where I would argue he falls under the same principle as Kawaguchi in that he had an easy Stage 1 and nerfed Stage 2. And while Ryo is definitely more consistent on Cliffhanger jumps (at least in training, since he's only attempted them twice) and did much better on the Final than Kawaguchi did, I really don't think he would have stood a chance on a harder Stage 1 (and his failures from 31 ~ 35 kind of back that up).
36 he broke a 5 fail drought on a harder Stage 1 and while Stage 2 was pretty stagnant by that point he still beat the Ultra Crazy Cliffhanger and had that sick one hand save before getting further on the Vertical Limit than anyone besides Morimoto (seriously, if he were in better shape he might've made the final).
That all said, seeing him fail the Salmon Ladder in 38 really did make me think he has no shot at victory anymore, especially since Snow Man and Saikawa did better than him despite not really being threats to Stage 2 at the moment and in the old days Ryo and Salmon Ladder failure would never be in the same sentence (I'm not counting USA vs. Japan since those rungs are made out of different material and you can't really train for that) and if he keeps going down this road it's only a matter of time before he can't do Cliffhangers anymore.
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Post by sasukeninjawarrior on Oct 3, 2021 23:14:06 GMT -5
Ah, another one. Ryo's performance in 36 was much more impressive than his Final Stage runs in 27 and 30. 27 of course had the lot of nerfs (mainly in Stage 3) and rewatching his Final Stage run, yes he did get close to the top, but that Final Stage had that 15 foot staircase that cut back on some of the height and watching him he didn't look like he was going very fast. Perhaps that was just another result of how rigged for a win 27's course was. But, even Yuuji who went after him was blazing up the rope. And then came 30 where I would argue he falls under the same principle as Kawaguchi in that he had an easy Stage 1 and nerfed Stage 2. And while Ryo is definitely more consistent on Cliffhanger jumps (at least in training, since he's only attempted them twice) and did much better on the Final than Kawaguchi did, I really don't think he would have stood a chance on a harder Stage 1 (and his failures from 31 ~ 35 kind of back that up). 36 he broke a 5 fail drought on a harder Stage 1 and while Stage 2 was pretty stagnant by that point he still beat the Ultra Crazy Cliffhanger and had that sick one hand save before getting further on the Vertical Limit than anyone besides Morimoto (seriously, if he were in better shape he might've made the final). That all said, seeing him fail the Salmon Ladder in 38 really did make me think he has no shot at victory anymore, especially since Snow Man and Saikawa did better than him despite not really being threats to Stage 2 at the moment and in the old days Ryo and Salmon Ladder failure would never be in the same sentence (I'm not counting USA vs. Japan since those rungs are made out of different material and you can't really train for that) and if he keeps going down this road it's only a matter of time before he can't do Cliffhangers anymore. I think the salmon ladder fail was likely due to rolling log taking a huge toll on Ryo, and him trying to rush as the time limit itself isn't exactly lenient. So him being dizzy and trying to rush the salmon ladder might have caused his fail in 38.
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Post by dakohosu on Oct 4, 2021 5:07:30 GMT -5
Yeah I don't think his fail in 38 was due to a lack of strength or practice. He's shown repeatedly in Yuuji's YouTube videos that he can still easily do the Cliffhanger jump and Salmon Ladder. Also you could see he was getting enough height to make the transitions but just constantly landing them lopsided, which as sasukeninjawarrior mentioned was likely due to the dizziness. He even struggled to stand up straight before rushing into the obstacle which basically confirmed his head was still spinning. The thing with the Salmon Ladder is that it can be very easy (relatively speaking) to clear it if you get a good rhythm of momentum going. Whereas if your flow is constantly broken by the bar landing lopsided then you lose that momentum and constantly have to regain that explosive power, which results in your strength getting sapped pretty quickly, and hence the longer you spend on the obstacle the less chance you have of clearing it. Ryo would've been absolutely fine had he not fumbled those first few transitions by which point he'd lost his explosive rhythm and most of his strength, which attributed to his failure.
In terms of subtleagent's opinion, I'd say his attempt in 36 was more impressive than his 27 run but not as impressive as his run in 30. As mentioned 27 was on a nerfed course and the fact he'd failed Stage 1 four times in a row beforehand basically rendered his clear kind of lucky, also in Stage 2 he couldn't lift the last wall and instead ducked under the gap; had the gap not been there he would've probably got stuck under the wall (like he did in 28) and timed out. His run in 30 by comparison was almost picture-perfect - it was way more impressive in that he cleared Stage 1 with the second-fastest time, cleared a Stage 2 that I'd argue was a lot harder in terms of the Swap Salmon Ladder and more stringent time limit than 36's, cleared Stage 3 with absolutely no trouble and was only about a metre away from Kanzen.
36's Stage 3 was obvs a lot harder but I'd say the reason why 30 edges it over 36 was that in 30 he seemed head and shoulders above the rest of the competitors, almost occupying the role that Yusuke does now or Nagano did in earlier tournaments (hence why he got #100 in 31), whereas in 36 we got 4 Vertical Limit attempts. 36 would've definitely edged it had he made the Final Stage which granted was a huge possibility given how close he came.
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Post by subtleagent on Oct 4, 2021 19:43:22 GMT -5
I suppose that's true, 36's Stage 2 would have had 13 clears if it hadn't been for the DQs and if Keitaro didn't spend all that time psyching himself up for the Backstream (if he really took 20 seconds doing that it and spent even more time in it only reaffirms my statement that 33 - 36 had a ridiculously lenient time limit).
And yeah 4 people reached it, but Ryo did get furthest on it of those who failed and Morimoto was a shoe in to clear anyway hence why I find it more impressive.
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Post by dakohosu on Oct 17, 2021 13:21:16 GMT -5
Not sure if this is an opinion but didn't want to make a separate post about this. [SPOILERS ALERT]
Honma Takashi's fail in Sasuke 38 was 100% on purpose (for those of you who don't know he 'tripped over' before the Dragon Glider and fell into the water pit right underneath the obstacle). Clearly, he knew he was going to fail anyway as the klaxon was blaring so he just wanted to go out in a comical fashion. If you actually look at where he fell it was several meters before the water and he looked as though he purposely thrust himself forward on all fours just to fall in the water. Either way, it was hilarious.
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Post by subtleagent on Nov 7, 2021 1:50:37 GMT -5
Iketani was never as impactful to the show as most people say he is.
While yeah he has the distinction of being one of the few competitors to do well in two different eras of the show (SASUKE 4 and the golden era), his results are generally stagnant and just really don't stand out because he generally fails where most others fail. His run in 10 was overshadowed by Yamada, and his subsequent Stage 3 attempts declined even more drastically than Shingo's.
And then Shin-SASUKE hits and his decline really begins to show. Yeah he beat Stage 1 in 26 (which I definitely didn't expect given that Stage 1 slammed the Japanese competitors due to lack of prep time because TBS only announced it like 2 weeks before taping and retconned all of 25's Stage 1), but that was followed up with a mediocre Double Salmon Ladder attempt followed by an even worse one the following tournament despite the obstacle being nerfed.
Then comes SASUKE Rising where while one could argue his sporadic attendance is reason to his horrid results, joke competitors like Torisawa, Yamada and Akira Omori are at this point doing better than him results-wise. All of them being older than him and nowhere near as athletic so I refuse to use the age excuse as a reason.
I get SASUKE is more a side gig for him, hence he doesn't train for it that much, but it is a bit baffling how underwhelming his results generally are throughout his career.
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Post by dakohosu on Nov 7, 2021 5:02:39 GMT -5
Not sure if I agree with this one.
Sure, he was never as big of a deal to Sasuke as Kane Kosugi was, but you can't deny that at the time he had a quite important role in driving the ratings, given that he was basically the only celebrity at the time to actually do relatively well on the show (not counting foreign Olympians as they weren't famous in Japan). Obviously he would've had a bigger impact on the show had he maybe reached the Final Stage or whatnot, but the guy still reached the Third Stage six times during the first ten years of the show which was basically unheard of for a non-All Star (even Yamada, Akiyama, or Bunpei never reached Stage 3 that many times). He was also well known amongst fans of the show given that they would've also been watching Sportsman No. 1 which he was basically THE mascot competitor for, with his Monster Box records etc. He was also the leader of the Muscle Musical which again contributes to his fame. Imo he was basically the Darvish of that era except he didn't get an excessive amount of screen time and actually had better results to warrant the attention that he did get.
Obviously this changed from Shin-Sasuke onwards but I think that's more due to him not competing very much anymore rather than his results. He already had a great track record under his belt so had he competed more often it would've still probably helped the ratings regardless of how well or poorly he did. So many celebrities these days have rubbish results but that's not why Inui picks them to be on Sasuke, it's more that them simply showing face drives a large proportion of the viewers. This would hence probably still be the case if Iketani continued to compete, but he also has the distinction of actually being a somewhat (former) serious competitor which meant that he could be appreciated by both fans and the wider Japanese community. So yeah, I think Iketani did have a significant impact on the show as a whole, lol.
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Post by dragstar on Nov 8, 2021 17:03:29 GMT -5
There should be footages for more of the competitors. Especially for the younger celebs that competed like those from the girl idol groups to give the viewer a reason to care about them.
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kianmike
Satō Hiromichi
Hype will be real when the full Ninja Machine comes out.Just saiyan.
Posts: 230
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Post by kianmike on Nov 8, 2021 19:22:45 GMT -5
One of mine would probably be unpopular to this community specifically, and not so much others (outside of maybe the 4chan/2chan communities), but anyways, mine would be that Stage 2 shouldn't be made harder, Stage 1 should be made easier. I say that because most of the people that have been beating Stage 1 of SASUKE as of lately, have either been foreigners, or the domestic competitors that know the first half of the original Sudden Death NW format inside and out (that being Stage 1 and 2 of SASUKE). If Stage 1 became easy enough that it no longer virtually became a requirement that you train specifically for it in order to have a chance (eg. replacing the Dragon Glider), then Stage 2 could honestly be put to the test more in a way akin to SASUKE 34/2017 Fall.
Another opinion would be that I think adding in new twists that aren't just obstacle modifications/replacements (preferably in renewal tournaments) should be accepted within the community the same way that obstacle modifications/replacements are currently in the community. These include things like a smaller prize in JPY to be awarded to the Furthest-Fastest competitor in the event of no kanzenseihas, either Safety Passes from American & Australian ANW or Jokers from NW France (although it'd probably have to be only usable on Stage 3), a possible money tree akin to VIKING Family Muscle that could be in place from either Stage 2 or 3 onwards, etc. Going back to Safety Passes/Jokers, something I honestly agree with one of this site's own moderators on, is at least the way said moderator and myself sees it, Safety Pass/Joker runs are no different than do-overs that result from malfunctions or another legally unfair result. Like, if anything, Yamada getting 2 do-overs in SASUKE 12's 2nd Stage is arguably more sinful imo than an in-game advantage that can be earned by winning a separate side-event. & this may be due to me being one of the biggest advocates for Safety Passes/Jokers out there, but I honestly consider it very genius for when it was introduced.
So yeah, that's my take.
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Post by dakohosu on Nov 9, 2021 9:23:02 GMT -5
One of mine would probably be unpopular to this community specifically, and not so much others (outside of maybe the 4chan/2chan communities), but anyways, mine would be that Stage 2 shouldn't be made harder, Stage 1 should be made easier. I say that because most of the people that have been beating Stage 1 of SASUKE as of lately, have either been foreigners, or the domestic competitors that know the first half of the original Sudden Death NW format inside and out (that being Stage 1 and 2 of SASUKE). If Stage 1 became easy enough that it no longer virtually became a requirement that you train specifically for it in order to have a chance (eg. replacing the Dragon Glider), then Stage 2 could honestly be put to the test more in a way akin to SASUKE 34/2017 Fall. Another opinion would be that I think adding in new twists that aren't just obstacle modifications/replacements (preferably in renewal tournaments) should be accepted within the community the same way that obstacle modifications/replacements are currently in the community. These include things like a smaller prize in JPY to be awarded to the Furthest-Fastest competitor in the event of no kanzenseihas, either Safety Passes from American & Australian ANW or Jokers from NW France (although it'd probably have to be only usable on Stage 3), a possible money tree akin to VIKING Family Muscle that could be in place from either Stage 2 or 3 onwards, etc. Going back to Safety Passes/Jokers, something I honestly agree with one of this site's own moderators on, is at least the way said moderator and myself sees it, Safety Pass/Joker runs are no different than do-overs that result from malfunctions or another legally unfair result. Like, if anything, Yamada getting 2 do-overs in SASUKE 12's 2nd Stage is arguably more sinful imo than an in-game advantage that can be earned by winning a separate side-event. & this may be due to me being one of the biggest advocates for Safety Passes/Jokers out there, but I honestly consider it very genius for when it was introduced. So yeah, that's my take. Interesting takes tbh. I think your first point really depends on what patterns of results constitute a good tournament. Personally I prefer tournaments with a harder Stage 1 and thus fewer clears, and then when Stage 2 comes about it’s a real 50-50 as to whether they’ll clear or not. My issue with the current iteration is that we get far too many competitors who clear Stage 1 who have absolutely zero shot at Stage 2. Sasuke 34 being an example where a load of rookies cleared but then all failed on the Salmon Ladder which to me consolidated that they didn’t deserve to be there in the first place. 35’s results by comparison were more interesting as we only got 8 clears and all of their Stage 2 runs were pretty strong, making any fails way more surprising and shocking. While I understand your point about designing the stage such that competitors who don’t train replicas have a shot of clearing, that basically guarantees that everyone who does train specifically will clear anyway making the results more predictable and boring. I’d rather make the stage harder and have fewer clears and more shock fails; there’s a high chance a rookie will still manage to clear regardless, especially if they’re a foreign Ninja Warrior competitor as they’re usually super adaptable. I also think Stage 1 as it is is already too easy with a lot of joke competitors getting more than half way through the course. I prefer the old days when the course would get slightly modified every tournament which had a massive effect on the clear rate which was more often than not in the single digits; with most of them being serious competitors who could reach Stages 3 or 4. As for Stage 2, I agree that the current iteration with the Rolling Log shouldn’t be made harder until the clear rate starts to increase. 38’s Stage 2 I feel made enough of a statement to not warrant further buffing the stage. Though I am dying for a new Salmon Ladder as the Nobori/Kudari is so overplayed now. While I respect your opinion on the second point, I fundamentally disagree. The four stage format has worked so well over the years and thus should be kept unchanged. I personally see the safety pass as cheating as it’s basically giving a competitor a second shot that’s completely unwarranted; it’s not the same as an obstacle malfunction because the latter isn’t the competitor’s fault. Yamada’s case in 12 was obvs different but I’m certain they did that purely for the spectacle given how controversial a character he already was. The formula of ‘if you’re out you’re out’ should remain, especially as someone Kanzening on a safety pass would seem like such a cheap win especially if they use that safety pass on Stage 1 like you know who did in ANW. What makes Sasuke so much more special than ANW imo is the fact that it’s still authentic, rather than having all of these ridiculous side shows that dilute and cheapen the whole philosophy of the show. The point about giving a prize to someone who goes the furthest is fair, but unlike NBC, TBS simply don’t have the money to be handing out cash prizes to someone just because they got their hand an inch further on the new Cliffhanger than the rest
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Post by dakohosu on Nov 14, 2021 14:05:07 GMT -5
Another unpopular opinion.
I kinda liked Wakky, lol.
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Post by subtleagent on Nov 14, 2021 16:57:24 GMT -5
I did too, but it was clear his Stage 1 clears were kind of free passes. Easy courses with barely any time left and delivering the worst Salmon Ladder attempts I have ever seen.
Personality-wise he seemed fine, but M9 really hyped him way too much for his mediocre performances.
Comparatively, Hiromichi (even if I really don't care for him) showed he could at least beat the Salmon Ladder and Unstable Bridge combo and won KuroOvi and his Stage 1 clears were on harder courses so his hype felt more justified.
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kianmike
Satō Hiromichi
Hype will be real when the full Ninja Machine comes out.Just saiyan.
Posts: 230
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Post by kianmike on Nov 14, 2021 22:07:32 GMT -5
I did too, but it was clear his Stage 1 clears were kind of free passes. Easy courses with barely any time left and delivering the worst Salmon Ladder attempts I have ever seen. Personality-wise he seemed fine, but M9 really hyped him way too much for his mediocre performances. Comparatively, Hiromichi (even if I really don't care for him) showed he could at least beat the Salmon Ladder and Unstable Bridge combo and won KuroOvi and his Stage 1 clears were on harder courses so his hype felt more justified. As far as Wakky is concerned, he at least had merits from winning Sportsman No. 1's Celebrity Survival Battle, and was also a 3-time Complete Victor in the Inui-produced DOORS, so I at least give him credit for that, and even for clearing 27, 29, and 30's 1st Stages, which I wouldn't really undermine any tournament in which a competitor clears a stage, yes some tournaments have more meaning than others, but the way I see it, a clear is a clear, whichever way it's being looked at. As for Hiromichi, I think the only reason he only ever cleared twice in SASUKE (and if counting KuroOvi's The Ultimate Hero event, 3), is mainly due to how it was in VIKING where Hiromichi peaked as a competitor on shows with some form of SASUKE's sudden death format (which in this case was in the pairs version of Team VIKING), because in doubles competition in VIKING, it was there he got the lone 2nd Stage clear of his career, whether it being in the form of singles, doubles, or triples competition. So by the time the line of VIKING specials ended so Higuchi could focus on Sports X Casino on TV Asahi, Hiromichi had already peaked as an athlete.
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Post by dakohosu on Nov 15, 2021 9:01:43 GMT -5
Yeah agreed that Wakky’s hype was justified from his prominence on Sportsman No. 1. He was similar to guys like Iketani or Kinnikun in how he was positioned on the show as the three had very similar celebrity backgrounds.
I also found him quite jokes in the sense that he was an actual comedian and not like Darvish or ABC-Z who’s sideline antics are at the very least a tad grating.
And yeah true all of his Stage 2 performances were on easier courses with 20+ Stage 1 clears but he still surpassed a lot of stronger competitors in those tournaments. I think him reaching Stage 2 three times alone was enough to justify him as a semi-serious competitor and not just another one of the many joke competitors we’ve seen in recent years.
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Post by sasukeninjawarrior on Nov 15, 2021 13:47:47 GMT -5
I never saw Takeda kanzening in the 5-17 era due to the final stage. I think he would do well on rope but I don't trust him to do well on spiderclimb.
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Post by subtleagent on Nov 15, 2021 13:54:47 GMT -5
Hard to tell on this one since his Stage 2 runs were for the most part digested. Though he utterly biffed the Spider Walk in 5 and looked to be struggling on it in 9. 13 he didn't seem too bad on it, but yeah he never seemed speedy enough to do the Spider Climb. Though he did get fast times in Stage 2 throughout the era so maybe he would have done good on it.
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