|
Post by greenday61892 on Sept 16, 2014 12:53:34 GMT -5
Yeah I mean you basically already covered this but just look at the three men in particular who have achieved kanzenseiha. A crab trapper/massage therapist, a fisherman and a shoe salesman. Those DEFINE the everyman.
|
|
|
Post by phrozunsun on Sept 17, 2014 10:03:45 GMT -5
arsenette, i definitely don't agree that people want to watch regular people who they identify with who are less proficient that the elite athletes.Do people want to see an overweight dad sprint against Usain Bolt in the 100 m ? Do they want to see a 40 year old handyman swim against Michael Phelps ? NO ! they want to see the bloody best perform against the bloody best and push each other to new heights. But hey everyone has different opinions You could not be more wrong. And I want to make my phrasing clear; this is not a matter of opinion. You are wrong. Allow me to ask you something. Look at the current class of competitors in ANW. How many are competing on the show simply because they first heard of Ninja Warrior, Sasuke, or even started with ANW? How many on the show were elite athletes before knowing about the show? Do you see how seriously those same people take the competition today? How they train year-round to try to complete this obstacle course? Where do you think they got the belief? Did they simply look at the obstacles and say to themselves--that's so easy, I'm going to just drop everything I'm doing to win 500K? No, because that's impractical. Something else caught their eye. Something else convinced them that they too could be a competitor, a sportsman, a role model, a hero, an elite athlete, an American Ninja Warrior. And it wasn't the elite athletes that were already on Sasuke or ANW. It was the fishermen. It was the shoe salesmen. The has-been sprinters, the civil servants, the fire fighters, the gas station managers, the average citizens who were essentially 'nobodies' in real life, but had become international ALL-STARS. Can you imagine the thrill of being considered an 'all-star' at anything, for a middle-aged guy living in middle America who has already settled down and accepted a perfectly average little life in a big, big world? In the grand scheme of things, it is the success stories of these regular people who rise to the occasion, the attention and adoration that they get, the amazing things they are actually capable of and it gives us, the average viewer, the feeling that we too can be competitive, be a somebody, be an all star, be an American Ninja Warrior just like they managed to be. That's the pull of the show that separates it from Wipe Out and other gimmicky gameshows. When we see an elite athlete, who has always been elite, who has always been at the top of their sport--that does not inspire us. That doesn't make us feel like we are capable of being all stars. It makes us feel awestruck. We feel smaller. We feel entertained, but largely removed personally. Sometimes we feel jealous. So we watch more. But I do not believe that is the allure of these obstacle course shows that has thrust it into the phenomenon that it is. I think there's a very big difference between watching "average joes" like Joe Moravsky or Paul Kasemir instead of "average joes" like someone's fat uncle Lou. You don't seem to make that distinction, which is probably why you're disagreeing in the first place. Guys like Moravsky, Kasemir and the guys who won Sasuke are "average joes" in the sense that they have real jobs, but they devote a lot of time to elite level training. At that point, it's really hard to classify them as 'nobodies'. They're not professional atheletes in the traditional sense, but they're leaps and bounds beyond "average joes" who watch the show. Personally, when I watch, I consider the show's homegrown elites - a mix of the Average Joes, Professional Gym/Parkour/RockClimbers to be exciting - more so than the random walkons "average joes" that have sob stories, but no real chance of making it past the first two obstacles in the qualifiers. Especially frustrating is watching 3 minutes of promo, and a 30 second run, and then another wildcard run for those very people when they practically cut good competitors like Paul Kasemir right out of the season. Not the best allocation of time in terms of brand/emotional-equity building in my opinion. Sidebar - Kacy isn't an "average joe" - pretty sure she was an top ranked NCAA gymnast. And they pushed her like hell this year. So your theory that they want to appeal to a broader audience using the "average joe" types has a massive hole in it.
|
|
arsenette
Administrator
Rambling Rican
Posts: 16,616
Staff Member
|
Post by arsenette on Sept 17, 2014 18:25:36 GMT -5
Hmm I think the problem is the fact that we are arguing over NBC decisions that the competitors have zero control over. We have zero idea why NBC decided to shaft Paul. It was wrong and there's no justification for it. Hell they couldn't even get his NAME right when they did actually credit any photo with him.
The casual fans who are keeping this show alive watch people that they don't expect to clear. That will always be in contention with the opinions who want the Olympics recreated. They are two separate types of viewers. ANW is not the Olympics and the reason that format is popular is because the casual fan watching expects "they can do it too" and line up to be part of the show. That's the mystique in Sasuke as well. That's why people like Kacy were huge. They didn't expect a woman to clear the stage and were furious when they saw her fail in Vegas. They ran two different types of courses raising the expectations of those who followed her. This is though a point that most of you who want just hardcore athletes are missing. Viewers are finicky. They fast forward people they "expect" would clear while watching someone take 9 minutes to clear a stage they seriously thought would fail. You may not find that entertaining (I actually don't myself), but she became a national sensation for it. That example shows the divide in those viewers who watch because it's compelling to see people rock the course (especially Vegas) and those who want a girl (or older guy, or skinny dude with no muscles, etc. etc.) actually clear the course so they can say "oh wow I wasn't expecting that". That's the nature of television and that's why NBC does the edits and creates a format for those people to thrive over the ones that can do the course in their sleep. This is also the reason why there are more "new" people watching and the old guard that used to support the show are starting to not tune in anymore.
|
|
|
Post by Oti on Sept 17, 2014 19:24:22 GMT -5
Very well-articulated, Love.
|
|
|
Post by phrozunsun on Sept 17, 2014 20:29:09 GMT -5
Hmm I think the problem is the fact that we are arguing over NBC decisions that the competitors have zero control over. We have zero idea why NBC decided to shaft Paul. It was wrong and there's no justification for it. Hell they couldn't even get his NAME right when they did actually credit any photo with him. The casual fans who are keeping this show alive watch people that they don't expect to clear. That will always be in contention with the opinions who want the Olympics recreated. They are two separate types of viewers. ANW is not the Olympics and the reason that format is popular is because the casual fan watching expects "they can do it too" and line up to be part of the show. That's the mystique in Sasuke as well. That's why people like Kacy were huge. They didn't expect a woman to clear the stage and were furious when they saw her fail in Vegas. They ran two different types of courses raising the expectations of those who followed her. This is though a point that most of you who want just hardcore athletes are missing. Viewers are finicky. They fast forward people they "expect" would clear while watching someone take 9 minutes to clear a stage they seriously thought would fail. You may not find that entertaining (I actually don't myself), but she became a national sensation for it. That example shows the divide in those viewers who watch because it's compelling to see people rock the course (especially Vegas) and those who want a girl (or older guy, or skinny dude with no muscles, etc. etc.) actually clear the course so they can say "oh wow I wasn't expecting that". That's the nature of television and that's why NBC does the edits and creates a format for those people to thrive over the ones that can do the course in their sleep. This is also the reason why there are more "new" people watching and the old guard that used to support the show are starting to not tune in anymore. After Jessie Graf last year, I was sure that a female would clear it this year. No big deal. In fact, it shouldn't ever be a big deal - why does sex even matter? A person cleared the course. Congratulations, now let's keep the show moving. And after I saw Kacy's first promo with her training with Brent and doing the warped wall, it was obvious that she would clear it. So in terms of excitement, it wasn't really there. And again, Kacy was a top ranked gymnast - she should have been able to do it last year. I'm not impressed. Second, was Kacy really that much of a sensation, or was it just NBC putting their marketing time/dollars behind her? The Black Eyed Peas and Nickelback are awful, but payola kept them on the radio long enough to beat everyone into submission. Kacy practically had a promo every episode after her first run, and had paid ads on FB showing her run (they came up in my feed) - social proof is an interesting thing and the general public is dumb enough to fall for it. They could have given literally ANYONE that push and succeeded. Again, not impressed.
|
|
arsenette
Administrator
Rambling Rican
Posts: 16,616
Staff Member
|
Post by arsenette on Sept 17, 2014 20:41:36 GMT -5
Oh fair enough. And yes the public is that dumb. For all of us who have followed both ANW and Sasuke for the years that we have we don't accept the political bulls**t that they try to ram down our throats (including chacking Paul for 90% of the show). He's one of our favorites because we FOLLOWED him. The average viewer is not as invested. Think of it this way. When you watch the Olympics, do you watch SOLELY NBC's coverage? Probably not, usually I'm pinging all the streaming sites until I find what I want in real time. (usually end up in Eurosport) We are the anomaly. However, NBC has had a set system with all of their shows including the Olympics. They also have the ratings to back up that most people like to be spoon fed "feel good stories" even if most of it is utter bulls**t. Anyone watching NBC Olympics knows that. These are the same people who produce ANW. I honestly think it shouldn't come to no one's surprise.
|
|
|
Post by Oti on Sept 17, 2014 20:49:15 GMT -5
Sex matters because women are at a massive disadvantage compared to men when it comes to intense physical competition like ANW. That's why it's a big deal when a woman legitimately clears the course, compared to the hundreds of men that have cleared it over the years (yours truly included, twice).
You're too focused on you. Most of the members here (myself included) share your thoughts and opinions on the competitors and the way the show is edited, BUT LISTEN TO THIS: we're not the center of NBC's little universe. The casual viewer is. NBC does things they way they do them for a reason, and it's working as far as they're concerned. That's it. That's the bottom line. NBC doesn't care if you're happy or impressed or in suspense at the beginning of a competitor's run. They're going to do things their way, like they always have, even if it alienates some of the hardcore, long-time fans of the show/concept/whatever.
|
|
|
Post by phrozunsun on Sept 17, 2014 21:21:26 GMT -5
Oh fair enough. And yes the public is that dumb. For all of us who have followed both ANW and Sasuke for the years that we have we don't accept the political bulls**t that they try to ram down our throats (including chacking Paul for 90% of the show). He's one of our favorites because we FOLLOWED him. The average viewer is not as invested. My point is, if they ran a promo pack every episode for Paul Kasemir (or any other good runner that got chacked), then the public WOULD like him. There's a ton of other athletes that NBC could have pushed, ones that have longevity and could build an audience - instead of having a bunch of disposable people going out 2 obstacles in after a 3 minute promo video. Most shows work on the premise of repeated exposure to the cast week after week. That's how you build an emotional connection and keep an audience. They way it seems now is that NBC is content spinning their wheels, investing time in competitors who can't stick around, than no one really gives a **** about. Sex matters because women are at a massive disadvantage compared to men when it comes to intense physical competition like ANW. That's why it's a big deal when a woman legitimately clears the course, compared to the hundreds of men that have cleared it over the years (yours truly included, twice). You're too focused on you. Most of the members here (myself included) share your thoughts and opinions on the competitors and the way the show is edited, BUT LISTEN TO THIS: we're not the center of NBC's little universe. The casual viewer is. NBC does things they way they do it for a reason, and it's working as far as they're concerned. That's it. That's the bottom line. NBC doesn't care if you're happy or impressed or in suspense at the beginning of a competitor's run. They're going to do things their way, like they always have, even if it alienates some of the hardcore, long-time fans of the show/concept/whatever. Sex shouldn't matter. If it does, then that's just as sexist as this thread. It only "mattered" because NBC hammered it all season. And check the reddit AMA - there's an interesting set of the posts where the producer practically trips over himself trying to justify the bulls**t things they do to the show "for ratings" and then contradicts himself every post thereafter. The fact is the show could be doing a hell of a lot better if they just fixed the bulls**t.
|
|
arsenette
Administrator
Rambling Rican
Posts: 16,616
Staff Member
|
Post by arsenette on Sept 17, 2014 21:38:10 GMT -5
No arguments there phrozunsun that's why I said to the producer what I said. They know they are screwing up but have zero interest in changing their formula despite the public outcry.
|
|
|
Post by Oti on Sept 17, 2014 21:42:01 GMT -5
I understand what you're saying, but this is a physical competition. Sex matters because men and women are physiologically different. Like I said before, this is why it's a big deal when a woman clears the course, despite the fact that hundreds of men have before her. It's the same reason why men and women rarely compete directly against each other in physical competition. This physiological difference is understood and accepted in the ANW community, where women are constantly supported and encouraged even though they'll never be on the level that some of the men are, and it was like that long before Kacy even attempted the course for the first time.
And for what it's worth, I don't think this thread title is sexist either. I think the OP sounds like an a*****e for wording it like that, but his logic is sound. If you have X amount of wild card spots to hand out and you really, REALLY want somebody to beat the Vegas course, final stage, 100% total victory, WIN, who would you give those spots to? Veterans who have run the course multiple times and have shown that they have the potential to win, right? How many of those veterans are women right now, as of ANW6? Zero.
Nobody is arguing that the show could be doing better without the bulls**t. Like I said, most of the members here agree with you on that.
|
|
|
Post by KinnikuBanzukeÜberAlles on Sept 17, 2014 21:59:28 GMT -5
I'm neutral with the Kacy hype. Let's face it, ANW will hype up anyone, as long as they're not trying to be the next Hibari, if they can get 8.9 million youtube views and over 42K twitter followers.
Kacy's gender and petite frame also matter because they differentiate her from the endless stream of guys on the show. Even someone like Jamie Rahn is probably only remembered as "the green-haired guy" by casual fans. Probably 99% of the male competitors are referred to as "Who the hell is that?" by casual viewers, not just James McGrath.
|
|
|
Post by wrestlingfan55 on Sept 18, 2014 8:38:23 GMT -5
So they're really giving Paul the shaft? Shame, as I quite liked him just from watching Sasuke. He's very easy to like imo.
|
|
Ralf
Kuramochi Minoru
Posts: 23
|
Post by Ralf on Sept 18, 2014 10:19:14 GMT -5
I say yes and I say it's not a wasting.
I like to see the women competing. Any of them knows that they are not competing for total victory but they want to see how far they can go. It's good for the show.
At least 70% of the regular contestants had also no chance to win (IMO).
|
|
|
Post by phrozunsun on Sept 18, 2014 16:10:05 GMT -5
I understand what you're saying, but this is a physical competition. Sex matters because men and women are physiologically different. I'd agree different, but i wouldn't say unequal. I think with enough training, women are actually better suited for some parts the course - they're generally lighter and more agile. I think the men are dominating right now because there's simply more men training specifically for it. If some 5'4-5'7 women with Kacy's kind of training hit the course, I think they'd give a lot of guys a run for their money. So they're really giving Paul the shaft? Shame, as I quite liked him just from watching Sasuke. He's very easy to like imo. Yeah, producer confirmed it was intentional on reddit, but said he had to be careful not to say why. My guess is that it didn't have to do with the wetfoot thing, probably just some idiot clowns at NBC that said "this guy doesn't have some sob story and he doesn't showboat on the course, so let's cut him"...
|
|
nehcney
Satō Hiromichi
99%
Posts: 240
|
Post by nehcney on Sept 18, 2014 16:43:14 GMT -5
probably just some idiot clowns at NBC that said "this guy doesn't have some sob story and he doesn't showboat on the course, so let's cut him"... PK had a huge story done on him when his gf died. He's had the limelight already, does he need one every single year? My guess is he hasn't had any significant updates or life changes since then to warrant another big segment. As for showboating, he actually does a LOT of showboating after every clear so your statement isn't accurate. In the last episode he also started climbing the fence by the buzzer but they cut out early. Unless by showboating you mean taking his shirt off, then yes he doesn't take his shirt off.
|
|
|
Post by phrozunsun on Sept 18, 2014 17:21:01 GMT -5
probably just some idiot clowns at NBC that said "this guy doesn't have some sob story and he doesn't showboat on the course, so let's cut him"... PK had a huge story done on him when his gf died. He's had the limelight already, does he need one every single year? My guess is he hasn't had any significant updates or life changes since then to warrant another big segment. As for showboating, he actually does a LOT of showboating after every clear so your statement isn't accurate. In the last episode he also started climbing the fence by the buzzer but they cut out early. Unless by showboating you mean taking his shirt off, then yes he doesn't take his shirt off. Hey Yen! I didn't say he needed a fluff piece, but he was a strong runner that had every run digested except the one where he was out. The guy was in the top 3 for every run. I think he earned some TV time. And I meant showboating Noah Kauffman style (mid-run). Bull Bullard does it too. Kasemir generally seems to just go through the run and showboat afterwards. I'm guessing someone at NBC probably thought his solid but uneventful runs "didn't make for good tv" and cut him out. (then again, I wasn't there, and didn't see them because they were cut, so I don't know for sure)
|
|
|
Post by Oti on Sept 18, 2014 17:27:26 GMT -5
I different, but i wouldn't say unequal. You can say that, but you're wrong. PM me if you want to discuss it further. This thread isn't the place for it.
|
|
|
Post by phrozunsun on Sept 18, 2014 17:47:21 GMT -5
I different, but i wouldn't say unequal. You can say that, but you're wrong. PM me if you want to discuss it further. This thread isn't the place for it. I don't really care to discuss it further (it's that much of a non-issue to me), but if i did there's certainly no better place than this exact thread to discuss it.
|
|
|
Post by Oti on Sept 18, 2014 18:34:52 GMT -5
I'll PM you.
|
|
nehcney
Satō Hiromichi
99%
Posts: 240
|
Post by nehcney on Sept 18, 2014 19:05:27 GMT -5
I didn't say he needed a fluff piece, but he was a strong runner that had every run digested except the one where he was out. The guy was in the top 3 for every run. I think he earned some TV time. And I meant showboating Noah Kauffman style (mid-run). Bull Bullard does it too. Kasemir generally seems to just go through the run and showboat afterwards. I'm guessing someone at NBC probably thought his solid but uneventful runs "didn't make for good tv" and cut him out. (then again, I wasn't there, and didn't see them because they were cut, so I don't know for sure) I don't know, maybe they put together a story for him and then after reviewing it the producers thought it wasn't what they were looking for. According to Scott from his reddit AMA, he said he was "boring" half-jokingly, which probably meant they didn't find an interesting enough story to go with. You're right Paul is all business during his run which probably goes hand-in-hand with him being so consistent.
|
|