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Post by Philip on Sept 10, 2014 14:02:02 GMT -5
I just don't like when someone has an opinion and they are automatically labeled "purist" as if it's a derisive statement and worth discounting their opinion. Obviously if someone has a complaint, critique, negative feedback they will be passionate about it. So long as no one resorts to character assassination their viewpoint should be respected. It doesn't mean you have to agree, however it does mean you shouldn't degrade people for holding opposite points of view. In this thread it looks as if it's a discussion between purely ANW people critiquing the show the way it should be. No show is perfect and if the viewers are having that strong of an opinion, NBC has to pay attention to it. The show is not growing so something is wrong. Feedback, however negative is meant to be so the show can improve. The show is NOT going anywhere so they need to listen to the critiques (pros and cons) and see how they can improve for next year. Automatically dismissing it does not help the show in any way. NBC has a problem right now, and it's a big one. Their base is not expanding, in fact it's shrinking. They need to find out how to fix it. My thoughts exactly, they need to get their heads out of their a**es and listen to feedback so competitors and viewers alike will be happy.
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Amber
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Post by Amber on Sept 10, 2014 14:12:46 GMT -5
One thing I don't like is that you drop down onto the Unstable Bridge platform in that Stage 2...
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arsenette
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Post by arsenette on Sept 10, 2014 14:41:38 GMT -5
Having been on the opposite side of this debate (even though I still stand I have issues with the production/NBC rather than the competitors - they are the victims here), is that those who have issues with our viewpoints attack us to shut us up ONLY because they say we are a minority. Then when the minority is shut up they say "no one is complaining". That's not what is going on. There are HUGE problems and a HUGE minority that is complaining about various aspects of the show. Not just one obstacle in the 2nd stage. Some argue over format (raises hand), the affect of Sasuke being REPLACED in the USA market (raises hand), casting choices (everything from regional invites to wildcards in Vegas), to season length (raises hand.. I mean seriously. 15 WEEKS?), to episode composition (% of fluff to actual runs), to content choices (who the hell keeps fast forwarding (insert name), etc.) and so on and so forth. It's a vast array of problems that are with the show and all are being told that in order to not be a "purist" you have to shut up and take it. This is supposed to be a discussion board. We don't have to like each other but we have to at least respect each other. That's not happening in the ANW section of this board.
As for Sasuke. WE COMPLAIN ALL THE TIME. Anyone who says otherwise is being disingenuous. Lord knows anyone who read my blogs knows I take Inui and TBS (since they are not the same) to task personally. I do it publicly AND privately. The point of these threads, however emotional, still stand. We have a right to voice our discontent because we want the show to succeed. The show is not growing and that will affect the show in the longrun. Anyone taking the time to yell this loud means they care passionately for it. If they didn't they wouldn't care and not watch and ultimately don't count in the ratings. These are arguments passionately made by those who HAVE watched and want the show to evolve into something with a long history the way Sasuke has managed to scrape by for 30 seasons. THAT show had a lot of problems and continues to try to reinvent themselves. NBC has done little to do that. They have gone backwards and it's affecting them greatly.
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Post by tbowman on Sept 10, 2014 17:44:45 GMT -5
I just don't like when someone has an opinion and they are automatically labeled "purist" as if it's a derisive statement and worth discounting their opinion. Obviously if someone has a complaint, critique, negative feedback they will be passionate about it. So long as no one resorts to character assassination their viewpoint should be respected. It doesn't mean you have to agree, however it does mean you shouldn't degrade people for holding opposite points of view. In this thread it looks as if it's a discussion between purely ANW people critiquing the show the way it should be. No show is perfect and if the viewers are having that strong of an opinion, NBC has to pay attention to it. The show is not growing so something is wrong. Feedback, however negative is meant to be so the show can improve. The show is NOT going anywhere so they need to listen to the critiques (pros and cons) and see how they can improve for next year. Automatically dismissing it does not help the show in any way. NBC has a problem right now, and it's a big one. Their base is not expanding, in fact it's shrinking. They need to find out how to fix it. This is quite interesting arsenette. I don't follow the ANW ratings. Are ratings poor this season? Did they really go down? I definitely assumed with Kacy going viral that ratings and viewership went up. Several individuals where I work starting watching the show this season after seeing Kacy's video. Not sure this thread is the place to begin this discussion, but if there is a significant problem, I believe answers will likely demand moving away from the history and purism of Sasuke. It also makes me wonder if ANW can ever get the huge ratings it needs to be on a channel like NBC. I could probably survive better on a niche network. Anyway, could you elaborate on the viewership challenges ANW is facing? Have you elaborated on this in another thread. Thanks!
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Post by tbowman on Sept 10, 2014 17:58:22 GMT -5
Having been on the opposite side of this debate (even though I still stand I have issues with the production/NBC rather than the competitors - they are the victims here), is that those who have issues with our viewpoints attack us to shut us up ONLY because they say we are a minority. Then when the minority is shut up they say "no one is complaining". That's not what is going on. There are HUGE problems and a HUGE minority that is complaining about various aspects of the show. Not just one obstacle in the 2nd stage. Some argue over format (raises hand), the affect of Sasuke being REPLACED in the USA market (raises hand), casting choices (everything from regional invites to wildcards in Vegas), to season length (raises hand.. I mean seriously. 15 WEEKS?), to episode composition (% of fluff to actual runs), to content choices (who the hell keeps fast forwarding (insert name), etc.) and so on and so forth. It's a vast array of problems that are with the show and all are being told that in order to not be a "purist" you have to shut up and take it. This is supposed to be a discussion board. We don't have to like each other but we have to at least respect each other. That's not happening in the ANW section of this board. As for Sasuke. WE COMPLAIN ALL THE TIME. Anyone who says otherwise is being disingenuous. Lord knows anyone who read my blogs knows I take Inui and TBS (since they are not the same) to task personally. I do it publicly AND privately. The point of these threads, however emotional, still stand. We have a right to voice our discontent because we want the show to succeed. The show is not growing and that will affect the show in the longrun. Anyone taking the time to yell this loud means they care passionately for it. If they didn't they wouldn't care and not watch and ultimately don't count in the ratings. These are arguments passionately made by those who HAVE watched and want the show to evolve into something with a long history the way Sasuke has managed to scrape by for 30 seasons. THAT show had a lot of problems and continues to try to reinvent themselves. NBC has done little to do that. They have gone backwards and it's affecting them greatly. I agree with the general premise of what you've written, but may quibble with "purists" just a bit. This is obviously just my opinion, but ANW cannot simply parrot Sasuke and be successful. America is not Japan. This is why in general I give NBC a large berth to develop the show how they want. The regionals and regional finals, for instance, are uniquely American. America is all about having the strongest competitors running the course, not a mish-mash of celebreties with a few elite competitors sprinkled in. The regionals also meet a networks desire to milk a successful show for all it's worth - hence multiple episodes. The above is just one example of the broader point that any solutions to the problems ANW faces will, for the most part, not be found by looking at Sasuke. I've already stated my primary problem - the difficult of the course. There is absolutely no way whatsoever an American audience could go 5 competitions (as Sasuke has) without someone even making Stage 4. Americans want a winner. The idea of the course winning every single year is an absurd idea to the average American sports fan. And the average fan is critical because ANW can't survive without them. Just my two cents.
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Post by tbowman on Sept 10, 2014 18:07:23 GMT -5
Having been on the opposite side of this debate (even though I still stand I have issues with the production/NBC rather than the competitors - they are the victims here), is that those who have issues with our viewpoints attack us to shut us up ONLY because they say we are a minority. Then when the minority is shut up they say "no one is complaining". That's not what is going on. There are HUGE problems and a HUGE minority that is complaining about various aspects of the show. Not just one obstacle in the 2nd stage. Some argue over format (raises hand), the affect of Sasuke being REPLACED in the USA market (raises hand), casting choices (everything from regional invites to wildcards in Vegas), to season length (raises hand.. I mean seriously. 15 WEEKS?), to episode composition (% of fluff to actual runs), to content choices (who the hell keeps fast forwarding (insert name), etc.) and so on and so forth. It's a vast array of problems that are with the show and all are being told that in order to not be a "purist" you have to shut up and take it. This is supposed to be a discussion board. We don't have to like each other but we have to at least respect each other. That's not happening in the ANW section of this board. As for Sasuke. WE COMPLAIN ALL THE TIME. Anyone who says otherwise is being disingenuous. Lord knows anyone who read my blogs knows I take Inui and TBS (since they are not the same) to task personally. I do it publicly AND privately. The point of these threads, however emotional, still stand. We have a right to voice our discontent because we want the show to succeed. The show is not growing and that will affect the show in the longrun. Anyone taking the time to yell this loud means they care passionately for it. If they didn't they wouldn't care and not watch and ultimately don't count in the ratings. These are arguments passionately made by those who HAVE watched and want the show to evolve into something with a long history the way Sasuke has managed to scrape by for 30 seasons. THAT show had a lot of problems and continues to try to reinvent themselves. NBC has done little to do that. They have gone backwards and it's affecting them greatly. Now I'm going to move in a different direction and ask an entirely different question: Can ANW survive period? Arsenette, I am blindly accepting your premise that ANW is in trouble and that viewership is not where it needs to be. I was not aware of this. But if this is true - There is not one single idea I've seen in any thread that would fix this problem. Tweaking a few things here and a few things there isn't going to significantly bring in higher numbers. If ANW is like other sports, they need a super star, or two, or several. But the idea of the super star is currently the anti-thesis of Ninja Warrior. The history of Ninja Warrior is that the course is the star. The only idea I can come up to increase ratings is to start seeing people beat the course. Maybe multiple people. And maybe start giving prizes to those who go the fartherst. I know - I'm now moving far, far away from tradition. Just brainstorming what it might take to significantly appeal to an American market. I recognize these ideas are heresy for a purist. But I stand by my opinion that small tweaks will not be successful in bringing in large amounts of new viewers. I do recognize I could be way off base with that comment. I will also say I remain surprised. I thought ANW did a better job this year of building some stars than it has in the past. Kacy in particular.
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Post by kangaroo on Sept 10, 2014 19:01:20 GMT -5
Having been on the opposite side of this debate (even though I still stand I have issues with the production/NBC rather than the competitors - they are the victims here), is that those who have issues with our viewpoints attack us to shut us up ONLY because they say we are a minority. Then when the minority is shut up they say "no one is complaining". That's not what is going on. There are HUGE problems and a HUGE minority that is complaining about various aspects of the show. Not just one obstacle in the 2nd stage. Some argue over format (raises hand), the affect of Sasuke being REPLACED in the USA market (raises hand), casting choices (everything from regional invites to wildcards in Vegas), to season length (raises hand.. I mean seriously. 15 WEEKS?), to episode composition (% of fluff to actual runs), to content choices (who the hell keeps fast forwarding (insert name), etc.) and so on and so forth. It's a vast array of problems that are with the show and all are being told that in order to not be a "purist" you have to shut up and take it. This is supposed to be a discussion board. We don't have to like each other but we have to at least respect each other. That's not happening in the ANW section of this board. As for Sasuke. WE COMPLAIN ALL THE TIME. Anyone who says otherwise is being disingenuous. Lord knows anyone who read my blogs knows I take Inui and TBS (since they are not the same) to task personally. I do it publicly AND privately. The point of these threads, however emotional, still stand. We have a right to voice our discontent because we want the show to succeed. The show is not growing and that will affect the show in the longrun. Anyone taking the time to yell this loud means they care passionately for it. If they didn't they wouldn't care and not watch and ultimately don't count in the ratings. These are arguments passionately made by those who HAVE watched and want the show to evolve into something with a long history the way Sasuke has managed to scrape by for 30 seasons. THAT show had a lot of problems and continues to try to reinvent themselves. NBC has done little to do that. They have gone backwards and it's affecting them greatly. I agree with the general premise of what you've written, but may quibble with "purists" just a bit. This is obviously just my opinion, but ANW cannot simply parrot Sasuke and be successful. America is not Japan. This is why in general I give NBC a large berth to develop the show how they want. The regionals and regional finals, for instance, are uniquely American. America is all about having the strongest competitors running the course, not a mish-mash of celebreties with a few elite competitors sprinkled in. The regionals also meet a networks desire to milk a successful show for all it's worth - hence multiple episodes. The above is just one example of the broader point that any solutions to the problems ANW faces will, for the most part, not be found by looking at Sasuke. I've already stated my primary problem - the difficult of the course. There is absolutely no way whatsoever an American audience could go 5 competitions (as Sasuke has) without someone even making Stage 4. Americans want a winner. The idea of the course winning every single year is an absurd idea to the average American sports fan. And the average fan is critical because ANW can't survive without them. Just my two cents. You also can not water down the course it is a fine line I really believe if the chain spin platform would have not been such a piece of garbage we would have 5-7 on stage three which is a good number on stage three. One would have been one of the Wolf Pack (ian) which would have gave them a great chance for some to get to at least the flying bars and maybe to stage 4. I think the course is fine in hardness hard but not to hard if they have the proper layout on building. They really need to do a better job of listening to tester and making modification. Cough cough Cannonball alley. I think they need to continue to work the editing and I really wish they bring the hot seat back that created drama yes the editors have to do a better job anyways. Also NBC should shorten the season Like the Cities should be Monday Tuesday hey they do that on the voice 5 cities or go 6 cities at 15 people is 90 10 wildcards run 100 two weeks stage one stage 2and three the next week. It make it more compelling and cut the weeks to about 8-10. The wait is such a drain on the city qualifiers. Sometimes you forget who was in the top 30 hard to have people root for someone when they forget. Oh and I think anyone that clears they should show the run (unless you have another Miami with 27) sheesh
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arsenette
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Post by arsenette on Sept 10, 2014 19:15:25 GMT -5
Ratings conversations belong on that thread. It's obvious you haven't read it because it's clear to anyone who reads it and sees the numbers going down when "new people started watching". If new AND old people are watching the viewership goes up.. not down. So if the show now is surviving on "new" people watching that means that the core audience is shrinking. Simple math tells you that you can't have both at the same time with those numbers. Something is wrong because they aren't maintaining their audience, they are losing them week to week. I've been maintaining that thread for 3 years now and few like having a discussion so I'm not doing that thread anymore past this season. I personally find ratings intriguing (not just for this how either) so I will do it on my own time for my own benefit. If anyone wants to do that then let them have it. I'm done after next week. Once people see numbers they find it hard to assert any other example without ignoring the obvious so I won't go through that on this thread. It's like when people attacked me for making stuff up about G4 being in last place in the country until they watched the ratings thread week after week without reading the network pressers and were blinding by "omg we were up x% this week". Everyone spins the numbers, but UNLIKE Japan.. all the raw numbers are there printed on several industry websites for the whole world to see.
As for "using Sasuke as a template" as the argument against "purists" then you have your own opinions about "us". Last time I checked the majority of this board is American and have had experience watching this new fangled invention called "television". We are allowed to have different tastes on what we like in entertainment without inserting Japan into the mix. As soon as any of us say anything we are immediately dismissed as if we just want Sasuke in the USA with an American coat of paint on it. None of you who are nitpicky with us actually read our comments clearly to understand where we are coming from. Automatically anyone who says anything wrong about ANW it's "zomg stop bringing Sasuke in it" as if we didn't exist back when G4 started the show by doing a damn voting contest. Love it or hate it, the Facebook comments really show the problem with this show. The ones taking time to complain on that are the "new" people who are just watching this for the very first time. Their arguments about why they don't like it are very specific. It's just that the ANW "purists" don't like reading them. They should. They are the audience NBC is trying to keep to survive.
As for ways for ANW to survive we can only go year to year. Someone already created a "what do we change for ANW7" already. Those thoughts should be there.
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Post by TCM on Sept 10, 2014 20:54:06 GMT -5
I'm putting this here since this has the brunt of the conversation on the matter of sorts. Apparently, aside from Joe's grabbing the chain on Cannonball Alley (which should have DQ'd him but they didn't, despite DQ'ing others), the Butterfly Wall had a rule where you could only run on a particular section of the course (in other words, the runup) but many people who got there didn't follow). And yet people are fine with the "no hands" rule on bridge obstacles...
Also, on the Comrades FB page, they're discussing the negative reaction on the NW FB page, and I amidst various opinions I agree/disagree with, David (Campbell, obviously) had some interesting comments regarding this season:
His opinion on the Butterfly Wall runup issue:
General opinion on the construction of the course:
Discussing the negative reception the show got on the Ninja Warrior FB page: I know he has an account on here, but he doesn't usually post here anymore, so just sharing discussion from a competitor, which is always important. So David re-confirmed what I suspected with the Silk Slider landing, making many of those fails due to the landing a complete crock.
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Post by tbowman on Sept 10, 2014 21:24:55 GMT -5
I know he has an account on here, but he doesn't usually post here anymore, so just sharing discussion from a competitor, which is always important. So David re-confirmed what I suspected with the Silk Slider landing, making many of those fails due to the landing a complete crock. Man - That is really tough to read. Just a huge, huge fail by NBC and the course designers. I also feel my opinion of the difficulty of Stage 2 has been vindicated a bit. David saying that three upper body obstacles in a row with a short time limit is harder than most of Stage 3 is completely consistent with what I was observing. The upper body endurance challenge of Stage 3 is the purpose of Stage 3. Allow Stage 2 to serve a different purpose. But, overall, just a wow. So many problems that should have been avoidable. How can they be so incompetent? Are they not listening to the testers? Are the testers not providing appropriate feedback? Why is this so difficult?
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Post by TCM on Sept 10, 2014 22:12:04 GMT -5
I know he has an account on here, but he doesn't usually post here anymore, so just sharing discussion from a competitor, which is always important. So David re-confirmed what I suspected with the Silk Slider landing, making many of those fails due to the landing a complete crock. Man - That is really tough to read. Just a huge, huge fail by NBC and the course designers. I also feel my opinion of the difficulty of Stage 2 has been vindicated a bit. David saying that three upper body obstacles in a row with a short time limit is harder than most of Stage 3 is completely consistent with what I was observing. The upper body endurance challenge of Stage 3 is the purpose of Stage 3. Allow Stage 2 to serve a different purpose. But, overall, just a wow. So many problems that should have been avoidable. How can they be so incompetent? Are they not listening to the testers? Are the testers not providing appropriate feedback? Why is this so difficult? Pretty sure in was said before that a new crew was used this year, and they had next to no knowledge on the show. I think David said on another post that they kept trying to dry off stuff with wet towels. Another example is he theorizes that the Jumping Spider is wider than what 'usual' specs were in previous versions. He also thinks that Kacy had no shot at clearing (like I think) the Jumping Spider because the trampoline is adjusted for female competitors (it's placed closer to the edge) and she practically had the form down but her hands couldn't reach. Maybe she could have waited a bit longer to stretch her legs out, though but virtually everyone else would have stuck it easily.
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Post by KinnikuBanzukeÜberAlles on Sept 10, 2014 23:23:32 GMT -5
But I stand by my opinion that small tweaks will not be successful in bringing in large amounts of new viewers. You're right about small changes not being able to bring in new viewers. ANW is never going to become a mainstream show with a large viewership. It's a niche show, and that's all that it's ever going to be because of its lousy format. "Wipeout's" first 3 seasons averaged twice the amount of viewers that ANW has gotten in its first 3 NBC seasons, and I attribute all of that to the format differences. Even though I wasn't a fan of the show, "Wipeout" worked because almost every episode was a self-contained, multi-stage show. Viewers could watch contestants progress from one stage to the next in a single episode, and there was a finality to each episode. In ANW episodes, on the other hand, viewers usually see one contestant attempt a particular course, and once they're done, viewers don't usually see them compete again in that episode. Then viewers see another contestant attempting the same course, then another contestant, then another, etc. It's the equivalent of watching an episode of "America's Got Talent" that consisted solely of singers trying to sing the same song for the entire episode; a complete snooze-fest. As long as ANW sticks with their current format, viewership will be stuck where it is.
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Post by peterpack on Sept 11, 2014 5:53:32 GMT -5
The problem is the prize is too big and NBC need to protect it so they are gonna make it too hard
How much did the guys who completed Sasuke get ? I doubt it was half a million dollars equivalent in yen
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Post by SasukeForever on Sept 11, 2014 8:56:12 GMT -5
How much did the guys who completed Sasuke get ? I doubt it was half a million dollars equivalent in yen 2 million for Akiyama, Nagano, and Yuuji the 2nd time, car for Yuuji the 1st time.
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Post by TCM on Sept 11, 2014 9:07:25 GMT -5
2 million JPY is about $18,720 USD. To compare prize amounts, $500,000 USD is about 53,418,535 JPY. Some people wouldn't mind a prize increase considering after taxes, you'll get maybe half that.
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Post by vaughngk on Sept 11, 2014 12:10:57 GMT -5
Some of you have asked to explain why I think NBC wants someone to beat the course but only wants one to do it per tournament. So here is my reasoning it should remembered that ANW like Saskue is a realty sports competition and like every realty show and sport there can only be one winner or team that wins. And NBC wants exactly that to have one winner. But like Saskue ANW is a show where competitors don't "play" against each other but the obstacles. So all competitors could technically win or lose. They don't want everybody to lose but do want someone to win. So they try design a course were only one person has the skills to wins say for example that person might be Brain Arnold or another top competitor. So yes ANW is rigged to the point were they want only one winner and if that person fails to win than most likely nobody will and that's what happened this season.
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Post by RiderLeangle on Sept 11, 2014 12:17:39 GMT -5
Well, they have said since the first one the title and prize only goes to whoever does it the fastest, so let's use Kunoichi 8's final for example, going by ANW's rules Kadoi won and Komiya was still impressive but doesn't get the prize, I hope whenever someone does win someone else doesn't make it to the top of the tower because that would cause one hell of a s*** storm...
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arsenette
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Post by arsenette on Sept 11, 2014 12:55:12 GMT -5
Please don't say reality show and Sasuke (or even ANW) in the same sentence. That's a slap in the face to all of the competitors who worked their a**es off to compete in either/both shows.
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Post by blah123 on Sept 11, 2014 13:15:59 GMT -5
Please don't say reality show and Sasuke (or even ANW) in the same sentence. That's a slap in the face to all of the competitors who worked their a**es off to compete in either/both shows. The truth hurts sometimes, get over it.
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arsenette
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Post by arsenette on Sept 11, 2014 13:21:16 GMT -5
Please don't say reality show and Sasuke (or even ANW) in the same sentence. That's a slap in the face to all of the competitors who worked their a**es off to compete in either/both shows. The truth hurts sometimes, get over it. Someone hasn't done their homework. Reality television:
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