If Nagano or Kanno

[bigblind168]

simple question, If Nagano and or Kanno passed stages 1 & 2 do you think Takeda would have beaten stage 3?

[Gavo]

I think if nagano cleared and Takeda didnt have the pressure of being last all star remaining he would of cleared the third stage.

[TCM]

That logic is flawed, Takeda and Nagano have been in the third stage together beforehand. As much as I want Takeda to pass the damn stage already, he needs to work on his stamina/endurance if he wants to pass as he has the strength down. One thing is for sure DON'T BE THE LAST MAN TO GO AGAIN TAKEDA! With his stamina problems + pressure of being the last All-Star remaining isn't good for him, so I'm saying had he'd not been last, I still think he would've failed, just based off of his track record.

[arsenette]

Jan 9, 2010 13:31:31 GMT -5 Gavo said:

I think if nagano cleared and Takeda didnt have the pressure of being last all star remaining he would of cleared the third stage.

100% agreed.. Takeda even agreed that he choked because he had too much pressure that he put on himself since Nagano wasn't there. Plain and simple.

[artyfowljr]

If Nagano cleared he would have passed.
It's not easy to prove you ahve stamina when you can't breathe...and not only speaking emotionally. Less breathe = less oxygen = your stamina sucks even if you trained hard. I (and a lot other people here, I think) can tell that for personal experience.
Nagano, Takeda and Shingo are the most emotional All-Stars, which can be good and bad for them at the same time.
But maybe that's why I love them so much


P.S. I'd also add that he would have had slightly more chances of passing if the announcer (I still can't remember their names) was fired right before Sasuke 24. What do you think?

[VenusHeadTrap]

Jan 9, 2010 17:41:46 GMT -5 artyfowljr said:

P.S. I'd also add that he would have had slightly more chances of passing if the announcer (I still can't remember their names) was fired right before Sasuke 24. What do you think?

That it's any announcers job to be really loud during such a gripping moment. Although, I actually remember thinking Wataru's voice getting pretty distracting..

[yamfriend]

I doubt that Takeda wouldn't have passed Stage 3 if they joined him there. Although he felt a lot of pressure because they weren't, them also getting to Stage 3 probably would not have made much of a difference anyway. Although Sasuke is draining both physically and mentally, you have to have an extraordinary amount of both.

[Badalight]

Jan 9, 2010 15:11:25 GMT -5 arsenette said:

Jan 9, 2010 13:31:31 GMT -5 Gavo said:

I think if nagano cleared and Takeda didnt have the pressure of being last all star remaining he would of cleared the third stage.

100% agreed.. Takeda even agreed that he choked because he had too much pressure that he put on himself since Nagano wasn't there. Plain and simple.

I can sort of see it that way, but this is stage 3. It's not a stage 1 mental screw up like Yamada's. If he was pressured to win so badly, wouldn't that give him more incentive to not fail? I don't see how him being mentally un-prepared caused him to run out of stamina.

[lars072]

Why did Takeda choke? He just didn't have enough strenth and stamina to get to up the Spider Flip platform. Simple as that.

[Zorn]

I don't think it would've made a difference if Nagano passed, I think Takeda still would've failed, but maybe he'd get farther than he did here and at least get to the gliding ring.

[awee1975]

i have to disagree with arsenette this time. Sorry!

1. IMHO, choking applies to only 1st & 2nd stage where there is a time limit & unpredictability factor. Eg. Nagano in 24 or Yuuji in 23 or Lee in 23. Things are going so fast it is easy to get caught in the excitement & make mistakes.

2. In 3rd stage, a competitor can have the time to compose himself & visualize. Choking here is unlikely unless you are a very inexperienced rookie ( eg. Tajima ). Nagano often makes mistakes in the 1st stage but iirc NEVER blunder in the 3rd stage. We seldom see "chokes" in the 3rd stage. ( IIRC only Levi in 23 )

3. Based on my observation of Takeda in 24. He did not choke but instead his upper body was just not STRONG enough. He didn't fail like in 23 or like Okuyama in 23. He just could not get his body up!

4. I know Ube made a joke about Takeda being a "talented choker" but ironically Takeda is the guy whom I think "chokes" the least. IIRC he only "choked" in 10 & 22. He is the most consistent guy in 1st or 2nd stage where it is easier to choke. I believe he just lacked upper body strength. he keeps failing 3rd stage for the same simple reason Akiyama fails 1st stage. Not strong enough. Akiyama has a weak lower body, Takeda the opposite problem ie. weak upper body. ( relative )

5. I based my arguments based on my interpretation of the term "Choking" to mean making AVOIDABLE mistakes & NOT DUE to ability.

[arsenette]

Nah I have to disagree .. Takeda I love him to death but is not a "closer". He allows outside distractions to get him out of whack. Kinda reminds me of Nagano sometimes when he allows his emotions to rule (Sasuke 19 anyone?). Takeda has a habit of either being too cautious or overly cocky. He figured in 23 that he had it once he got to the top and all he could do was cackle and smile with an attitude of "I got this".. and you saw the result. I am sure he could have gone much further if he applied concentration at that point. 24 I believe was an example of over-thinking.. especially tiring himself out on the rocks just before getting to the Spider Flip. He even admitted he allowed his emotions to control him since he was not used to the pressure.

Choking by definition implies that given other circumstances you would make it. And this applies:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choke_%28sports%29
Given that he has gone further than anyone in most competitions (13 so far) it proves that he does have the ability to be consistent. Maybe we should pray for him to get a lobotomy so he is emotionless? LOL That's actually part of the alure of watching Takeda over someone who is emotionally devoid like Okuyama. Okuyama is a master technician and I love watching him but I don't go crazy over him.. I prefer my heroes with emotion and Takeda and Nagano fit the bill.

[awee1975]

Different viewpoints & preferences. Actually i prefer the"machines" who can do it no fuss. Okuyama? This is the guy that took part in World Championship in his HOME country. Talk about pressure.

i am not boasting here but i have a trick that helps. i have never choked at any competitions or tests. If i failed them it is due to my lack of preparation or ability not pressure. The trick is to just FOCUS on what i NEED TO DO NEXT. Simple & easy. Forget about failure or success, just think about your task at hand. The end result is always a fair indication of preparation & training unless there is unexpected bad luck ( eg. Grinding ring in 21 )

That is why 3rd stage is easier mentally IMO cause you are under little time pressure. After every obstacle, you have time to think about your next move.

Of course, I understand your viewpoint in prefering "emotional heroes" to "mechanical machines". It is more FUN!

PS: on the other hand, look at Yamada. After reviewing his 24 performance, i agree with you that he actually could have cleared the wall. It is just a mental "choke" for him. No way he could NOT cleared the wall. He got it & let go. It is sad & i hate to be an a*****e but he is an example why i prefer "master technicians". .
Hell i work as a technician job in real life.

[arsenette]

Well that is the lure of Sasuke. You have the technicians and the emotional basket cases. Yamada was a perfect example.. heck even KANNO is a great example of it. Takeda falls into the same category. Wanting it TOO much. When they are fragile mentally to do that you wonder about whether they will overcome it. Personally I was VERY happy to see Takeda in Sportsman #1 because it was right after his failure in 24 AND you had Shingo reminding him of the significance of how he was last.. again.. holding it for the glory of the All-Stars. Granted it's a different show but I think it helped Takeda knowing he can hold that pressure and be the last All-Star. Funny as well. .Shingo was laughing at Takeda at how he was celebrating that milestone as if he friggin' achieved Kanzenseiha.. and IMMEDIATELY after that (Takeda not hearing the Shingo comment) said to the announcer "wow that's how it must feel to actually pass the 3rd stage!!".. so you know it was in his mind and at least for him he passed the hurdle. Going to be interesting how Kanno does Sasuke 25. Will see if he implodes like Yamada having tasted being at the top then sliding down to obscurity or actually overcome his emotions and live up to his potential. Will be interesting indeed.

Btw.. did you ever follow Olympic competitions? This happens ALL the time.. sorta like the famous Dan and Dave choke of all time in decathlon - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_%26_Dave This also happens a lot in sports in general where you have athletes that win World Championships but unable to win the Olympics and are considered a failure because of it. Personally being in the 3rd stage of Sasuke 13 times.. well more than anyone ever in the show is not a feat to be laughed at.. but I'm afraid this one will haunt him until he can overcome it. I'm hoping he's tougher now because of it. I'd love to see him in the final.. even if he never wins it.. just be there.. once...

[awee1975]

Personally i would be pissed if Takeda failed due to pressure. Sorry to disagree with you this time but i rather he fail due to training & preparation, ie. insufficient upper body strength. Akiyama is an example. This guy is a fearless cool guy but he was not even close on the S.Kabe. His fail was not due to pressure but he just wasn't at the top of his game. So this means MORE training.

[arsenette]

Nah Akiyama would be the very FIRST person to tell you he wasn't prepared. He's never blamed anything (not even his eyesight) other than lack of preparation as part of his failure. That's what I adore about Akiyama. No excuses.

Takeda admitted to it so I take his perspective on the situation. I have no idea what the word for choke is in Japan but he just about said that's what he did. He allowed himself to be freaked out and put undo pressure on himself for being the last All-Star out there and he failed because of that. I think that's why his speech at the end was so poignant since he admitted that was his failure. He knew he could make it but wore himself worrying about the pressure to have actually succeeded. I'm not pissed because he choked.. he's human and for the first time he understands why Nagano is so special. He's shouldered the responsibility of being the best All-Star and 9 times out of 10 being the last All-Star on the course and holding their honor as well as his own. Takeda now has newfound respect to a man he already adores.

IMO if he understand this.. then that is by far the best thing that could have ever happened to Takeda. Means he can grow and be stronger mentally knowing what his faults are.

[awee1975]

btw, as for Kanno. I have a theory. He has "gone over to the Dark Side" like Yamada. ;D

it will take too long for me to explain my theory here ( i am lazy ) but someone needs to remind him that the past "x" winners all have a regular life outside Sasuke. Big Hint

[arsenette]

Well.. we'll see if anyone had a sit down chat with him I know he was devastated after 24's first stage.. Yuuji didn't implode having 99 slapped to his leg.. but Kanno did.. again.. curious what will happen from now on.

[awee1975]

Yoda: " Let Go...he must "

[SRW]

No, His stamina has nothing to do with how others do he would have fallen at the same point!

For the record though Kanno and Nagano would have both gone to the final Kanno would have come up short and Nagano would have got kanzenseiha! lol