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Post by Badalight on Jan 2, 2010 12:47:15 GMT -5
Because have them for a reason Now that Shin-Sasuke has come to an end, which era of Sasuke was your favorite?
For me it was easily 5-17.
Sasukes 1-4 were a bit too easy to be called "The Hardest Obstacle Course Ever" and Akiyama won after 4 tournies. Though some may consider it classic, it didn't have a lot of our favorite obstacles back then.
Shin Sasuke had a lot of problems over-all.
18: Course was too easy for a complete over-haul, and the way Nagano lost was pretty ridiculous.
19: Way to hard, I understand amping up the difficult, but only 2 to pass the first stage, and both biting the dust early in stage 2? Also iirc the lowest rated tourney to date.
20: Once again a minimal amount of people beating stage 1, and an american saving the show while Nagano looked like a ghost and failed. Actually this one wasn't too bad over-all, the difficult is what it should've been for early-shin Sasuke, but after 19 it should've been made a littler easier.
21: Grinding-Ring
22: Stage 3 became a joke. It was obvious that it was much more technique oriented than strength. Sasuke 14-15's stage 3 made this one look like a cake walk. Yuuji wasn't even short on breath after hiting that final platform. Also a 45 second final stage was just plan wrong.
23:This tournament was easily the best out of Shin-Sasuke (In my opinion) there's really not too much to complain about here, so props on the new director for having a great tourney.
24: Yeah I'll probably get flamed for saying it but I really didn't enjoy a lot of 24. To be fair I REALLY liked stage 1. Some very exciting passes and clears. Actually my favorite stage 1 out of any shin-sasuke. (And yes I did get a bit teary eyed at both Akiyama's and Yamada's failures) Stage 2 was also fine. Stage 3 and 4 is were it became a train wreck. After 2 people got to the spider flip, 1 person got to the gliding ring, and 2 people got to the final stage the only thing they changed was the second obstacle? And the one they replaced it with wasn't very hard either. Everyone who beat the stage made it look like a cake-walk, stage 3 had become a joke. Yet, Takeda the all-star fails here? 5 people at the final stage is ridiculous. This hasn't happend since Sasuke 3. Sasuke 3 was one of the easiest tournaments in history, so atleast it has an excuse. But shin Sasuke the supposed harder version of Sasuke had 5 people get there? Yeah, TBS was really banking on a Kanzenseiha, for ratings or whatever. Hey you got it! Congratulations! I also love how you spoiled it and didn't even try to make the course harder!
X-bridge was a joke, rope junction was a joke. I'd put both of them in my top 5 worst obstacle of Sasuke history probably.
The tourney gave me the same unsatisfying feeling that Konuichi 8 did.
So anyway that's my take on it, what's yours? Of course this is just my opinion and if you loved Shin Sasuke of Sasuke 1-4 then good for you =) They are all awesome I just really loved the 5-17 era. Also it may seem like I ranted about Shin-Sasuke especially tourney 24. Well what do you expect? Newest era and tourney so of course I'd go more in depth about it. More to talk about aswell.
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Post by rcplanes59 on Jan 2, 2010 13:04:36 GMT -5
I voted Shin-SASUKE. This last tournament had a lot of flaws, sure. But back in 18 the producers were determined to make a First Stage that all 100 would fail, and they almost got it in 19 and 20. The producers began to let up in 23 where 28 people cleared in 2 tournaments. The Brick Climb was replaced by the demonistic Salmon Ladder that killed fluke challengers, making only the best survive. We saw the dawn of new strong competitors like Hashimoto Koji, Levi Meeuwenberg, Okuyama Yoshiyuki, Kanno Hitoshi, and of course Urushihara Yuuji. We saw the very best go down. Nagano failed the First Stage three times. Takeda failed four times. Yamamoto failed six times. The Third Stage featured the new Shin-Cliffhanger which made the competitors train much harder than ever before. Finally, we saw three instances of heartbreak - Yuuji, Nagano, and Hashimoto. In 1-4 only Yamada got close, in 5-17 only Nagano got close. In the eight attempts at the final, seven different people got to the Final Stage, giving us variety and more unpredictability than ever. So in conclusion, Shin-SASUKE was by far the best era, and now it's gone wayside. Only time will tell to see what Yuuji's victory will do.
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Post by Badalight on Jan 2, 2010 13:09:52 GMT -5
That is one thing I really liked about Shin-Sasuke, all of the new talent that appeared.
It's just a shame that their success on the course pretty much over-shadowed all of our favorite competitors from the ghost of Sasuke past.
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Post by TCM on Jan 2, 2010 13:09:54 GMT -5
I personally was more drawn into Shin-Sasuke, based off the fact that the skill of the competitors was top notch and it became more for me of "who'll get to the top first?"ordeal. Probably a horrible way to get into a tournament but whatev. IMO 5-17 tends to get overrated because it was the longest era. It didn't help it was the "Strength" era, while Shin-Sasuke was the "Technique" era and that's why I'm more partial to 18-24, I had no problem with the 3rd Stage, because if it was as bad as people call it, would've been smashed in 18, but it wasn't. One of my few gripes with 18-24's 3rd was how SCH was pretty much a novelty from the beginning. IMO it seemed that 5-17 spoiled most fans and they expected something that was almost 99.9% impossible and when they got it (19) they hated it. It also seems you were never going to like 24 once TBS said there was a kanzenseiha outright, since you praised 23 which was essentially the same, just that the competitors ended up getting the breaks they needed.
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Post by Badalight on Jan 2, 2010 13:14:57 GMT -5
I didn't hate Shin-Sasuke by any means, I just like 5-17 a bit better. You like the technique styled stage 3 better, while I like the strength styled version better. Just a difference of opinions, that's all. The reason I like 23 better than 24 is pretty simple. Yeah they were sort of aiming for a kanzenseiha in 23, but they did increase the difficulty a bit, and only 1 person had made the final stage so they didn't really need to up the difficulty TOO much. Besides from 22-23 they took 5 seconds from the final stage, and introduced the unstable bridge. Both pretty big changes. Then in 23 when people were demolishing stage 3, the only change they made was the rope junction. First stage they had the cross bridge which was a joke. So that's why I like 23 better, they didn't even try to make 24 harder because they knew if they kept it relatively the same, then someone would win. If they REALLY wanted someone to win in 23, they could've just kept the final stage time at 45. And just to be clear I didn't HATE Sasuke 24, like I said I love stages 1 and 2. It just sort of fell apart for me towards the end. It wasn't BAD. I love all the tournaments
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Post by TCM on Jan 2, 2010 13:34:34 GMT -5
I love all of them too, after re-reading my post I figured you would see it as just shooting down your opinions. Didn't mean to, that's just how I "debate" to put it in a word. I get your reasoning though, I do agree they went kinda backwards with 24, though they seemed to depend on the Salmon Ladder + Unstable Bridge combo if anything, maybe they could've if they didn't add 10 sec which only hurt Sato and maybe Yuuji if he had gone a bit slower (had the slowest time in Stage 2).
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Post by Captain Obvious on Jan 2, 2010 13:36:26 GMT -5
I said 18-24.
Simply put, calling it more "Technique" than "Strength" is just wrong. I cannot watch Toshihiro Takeda struggle exactly the same way on Stage 3 in Shin-Sasuke as he did in the 14-17 period and believe it became any less about strength.
The course really didn't get easier from 20 to 24. I don't consider this a mistake in the least. What I do consider a mistake is the increase of difficulty done between tournaments 13 and 14. They could have left Stage 3 alone and allowed for a higher chance of a Kanzenseiha in 14 before doing a course redesign (and it this point, a change to the course used in 18 would have been met with less lukewarm reception).
I don't think pushing the finish line just out of reach all the time is the right plan, but leaving the finish line right where it is until it's reach then moving it farther is better. The Super Rider courses on Kinniku Banzuke handled this pattern well.
My only big complaints about Shin-Sasuke are 18-specific and corrected pretty quickly (Log Grip "twisting", Shoulder Walk, Arm Bike, Climbing Bars). They've got a good pattern going, and I hope that in 3-4 years we are looking back at tournaments 25-32 and thinking "wow, this course that we thought was impossible back in 25 just got slaughtered by Okuyama, Stratis, and that kid from Finland".
Yay, Shin-Sasuke!
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Post by Badalight on Jan 2, 2010 13:38:32 GMT -5
Also, incase anyone is wondering I am VERY HAPPY for Yuuji. Even if I feel it was a little rigged for SOMEONE to win I'm glad that person was Yuuji. I've been a fan ever since I saw him in Bug in Miki. He was one of the most deserving, and he really did need the money. There are few other people that I would've wanted to win over Yuuji, but most of them had no chance in hell So congratulations to him. CO: As for the stage 3 debate I personally think Sasuke 14-15's stage 3 was the hardest. You have Rumbling Dice > Arm rings That's not too debateable, most people should agree there. Arm rings are a bit more technique based than the rumbling dice, and the rumbling dice takes a lot more stamina out of you. Body prop > Downward Globe Grasp or Rope JunctionBody Prop is easily one of the hardest stage 3 obstacles of all time. When you have people like shingo and Bunpei failing on the second obstacle of a stage, you know it's tough. Nobody ever failed the other 2 obstacles, it didn't even look like ANYONE struggled. (besides possible Miyazaki Daisuke) Curtain Cling > Devil StepsI understand if you disagree here, I used to think that to. This is something you'd have to replicate to truely understand. I can do the devil steps easily, watch my youtube videos. I've shown I can do it. However when I replicated the curtain cling... man I got owned. I always underestimated that obstacle until I tried it. It takes INSANE grip strength. Also using your feet really does next to nothing. SCH > Cliff-hangerK, one point for Shin-Sasuke Not much of a debate here. Old Jumping Bars > new jumping barsThis is simple, there were more back then. Hang Glimbing > Climbing BarsOkay, 2 for Shin Sasuke. Not much to be said here, it's pretty obvious. Spider Flip = Devil's SwingThis one is tough to call. Both are hard, but easily beatable with the right technique. People such as nagano failed the Devil's Swing and people such as Takeda failed the spider flip. Though you could argue once nagano figured out the cheap way to beat Devil's Swing it became very easy. So if there was a winner it would probably be Spider Flip. Pipe Slider > Gliding RingI don't see why there should be any debate here Gliding ring is cake, Pipe slider is incredibly hard to keep still and get to distance Gliding ring you just have to build up a little momentum which is pretty easy. Also people may argue. "But in shin sasuke you have to do 3 obstacles in a row!!!" Well, it's more like 2.5 since the spider flip is only have done then you get a resting spot. Plus it's evened out because after those 2.5 obstacle you only have to do the remain 0.5 of the spider flip before you get another resting period. So for me it just cancels itself out.
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Post by yamfriend on Jan 2, 2010 15:35:50 GMT -5
For me it's pretty close between the 2nd era (5-17) and the 3rd era (18-24), but in the end, I went with the 2nd era. The 2nd era was the longest era and had numerous competitors who were rather consistent in beating at least Stage 1. This era was also the rise of most of the elite competitors (notably the 6 Sasuke All-Stars and multiple others), and the course was neither too hard nor too easy. The 3rd era only lasted 7 tournaments but was full of exciting triumphs and shocking defeats, making it nevertheless great to watch. It seemed to make Sasuke more popular in Japan, the U.S.A., and the rest of the world. However, the 3rd era didn't have many competitors who passed Stage 1 more than half of the time, and some of the tournaments had major upsets results-wise. Point blank, the 2nd era wins over the 3rd era in my eyes, though the 3rd era would get the silver medal and the 1st era would get the bronze. However, I liked them all a lot---just some more than others.
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Post by Badalight on Jan 2, 2010 19:29:47 GMT -5
Another reason why I like the 2nd era. The stages go in order of easiest to hardest.
Stage 1 was the easiest, stage 2 was a little harder, stage 3 made a huge jump in difficulty, and the of course the final was the hardest.
Shin-Sasuke was almost completely backwards.
Stage 1 seemed almost the hardest. Feel free to disagree here but I'd wager it's pretty easily tougher than stage 2, and stage 3 for some.
Stage 2 is an odd case, it seems easier than stage 1 and pales in comparison to stage 3.
Stage 3 got it's arse kicked multiple times.
The final stage took 5 tries to beat, and the guy who won did it on his second attempt, took Nagano 4 attempts on the old one.
So the difficulty levels of the stages is very skewed. I liked the old format.
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Post by awee1975 on Jan 3, 2010 1:47:38 GMT -5
For once, i have to agree with badalight's reply #7 & #9. Actually when i first watched 21, i didn't know there was a malfunction in the gliding ring. I saw Nagano struggled & i thought it is so much harder than the tough Pipe Slider. Maybe for 25, they will have the "GRINDING Ring".
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Post by artyfowljr on Jan 3, 2010 18:54:21 GMT -5
oh man, I meant 5-17 but clicked SHin-Sasuke. Ah well. You know what? The thing I liked less of Shin Sasuke is that there have been few actual changes to the course...which made it easier for those who simply built replicas. This is why the course now looked "easy". Because even with a hard obstacle, if tou know it well and practise it so much, you'll pass it. In Sasuke 5-17 loads of obstacles changed...yes, there have been total obstacles fails (IMO...feel free to disagree) like the Cone Jump or the Climbing Bars (G4's Bridge of Destiny...bah), but at least there were changes, besides classic obstacles like the Kabe and the Cliffhanger. Even the Cliffhanger had many versions. They were easy, but they changed. It was more interesting to watch. On the other hand, Shin Sasuke was too unpredictable. I don't have much time now, I'll edit and explain this one better tomorrow.
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Post by quasikoz on Jan 4, 2010 16:39:56 GMT -5
I went 5-17 too.
Though Shin-Sasuke gave birth to the greatest obstacle in Sasuke history (Salmon Ladder). I loved the speed needed to beat the Second Stage and the sheer strength needed to beat the Third Stage.
The 2nd stage for 5-17 used to be a wire-to-wire affair you needed every single second to beat the stage. Especially in the later half of that era. Look at Kenji Takahashi's times in Stage 2 from the last 2 Shin-Sasuke tourneys. His speed now would have been par for the course back then.
As for the 3rd stage...RUMBLING DICE! Talk about putting one of the most difficult obstacles in Stage 3 right at the beginning of the course! (Arm Rings are a joke, though I realize they were added in at the end of this era.) Competitors were left with little arm strength after that and could barely do the Body Prop or old-school Cliffhanger. And the Pipe Slider has ruined so many chances at the Final Stage. (Though I'm probably one of the few who think the poor design of the obstacle lead to the difficulties the competitors had on it.)
I haven't given much love to the 1st Stage from this era, but it did give us some wacky one-time obstacles. Most notable to me was that vertical trampoline that nearly busted Takeda's butt in half. But I digress.
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Post by artyfowljr on Jan 4, 2010 18:57:09 GMT -5
Ooooh yeah. I loved that, even if it was easy, look at that landing! And Yamada nearly went face first onto a pole. Anyway, gotta explain what I left unexplained. Shin-Sasuke's first stage was simply unpredictable, which was the reason why it seemed harder than second and third. Jumping Spider, Halfpipe Attack, Flying Chute and then the Slider Jump are, IMO, obstacles that you can fail any time if you pay a bit less of attention. IN 5-17 there only was the Jump Hang. Also, for example, the Flying Chute redesign in 19 and also the Jumping Spider run-up in 19, the Halfpipe attack in 20 and now back in 24, were (again, in my opinion. feel free to disagree) nearly cheap ways to make the course harder without changing any obstacles. In Sasuke 5-17, if an obstacle was too easy, it got replaced, end of the story. Now, I'm not saying that they should have replaced those obstacles (JS, HPA and Flying Chute were some of my favourite obstacles), but all those changes made unpredictable Stage 1 results. In 5-17, serious competitors ALWAYS (or nearly always) passed stage 1. In the Shin-era, it was much more random. (but...magic words: IMO. Feel free to disagree)
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Post by scnoi1217 on Jan 5, 2010 0:28:19 GMT -5
A couple things: Well, my favorite is definitely Shin-SASUKE. I think it was the hardest (yes, I said hardest) era and personally my favorite over 5-17. I loved the obstacles and the difficulty at times of the course. It was unpredictable, which made it amazing. Seeing the All-Stars and various other competitors from SASUKE past, attempt and fail was good TV and made it that much sweeter when they did clear. In 5-17, you knew at least 3-4 All-Stars and a handful of other big names (Koji Yamada, Shunsuke Nagasaki) were gonna clear as well. Stage 1 wasn't really IF they would clear, but more about how much they would clear with and who would get the fastest time. Often in Shin-SASUKE, you would wonder if anybody in the first 50 would even make it to the second half of the course. Also, I loved how we saw new people step up and take control of the tournaments than ever before. Without them, one, Shin-SASUKE would still be going on, and two, I guarantee people would have different thoughts of Shin-SASUKE and the course would be even EASIER than now. Stage 2, wayyyyyy harder in Shin-SASUKE (which was very good imo). I have to disagree with the fact that 5-17's Second Stage was harder than its First. Roughly, 2/3 of people cleared stage 2 in 5-17 while less than a half cleared in Shin-SASUKE. Sure, speed wasn't a factor in Shin-SASUKE's second stage, but again, it's a different era than 5-17. Stage 2 wasn't really hard in 5-17, just time was more of a factor and because people were rushing, many of them failed. Stage 3, where most of the debate will occur. (Since Bada compares 14/15 to Shin's, I will to) Rumbling Dice/Body Prop/Curtain Cling vs. Arm Rings/Rope Junction (Lamp Grasper)/Devil Steps Yes, Shin's first few obstacles are easier. I'm not really gonna deny that. Now, were they THAT much easier than 14/15's? No, I don't think so. 14 and 15 had tons of joke competitors that would never make Shin-SASUKE's course today anyway. Iketani, Ishikawa, Kobayashi (both), Jovtchev, etc. Those types of competitors have been replaced by qualifiers who train a lot specifically for SASUKE just to make it onto the show and when they get there, they usually make the most out of it. A good example I think of what how an average competitor would fair on Shin's 3rd Stage would be Daisuke Miyazaki, who struggled a lot just to get to where he eventually failed. Shin-Cliffhanger vs. Cliffhanger Shin, pretty easily. Jumping Bars/Climbing Bars vs. Jumping Bars/Hang Climbing/Spider Flip (the climb up) Let's compare the obstacle series as a whole. Jumping Bars while they did have six of them, once you beat those, you pretty much made it to the green bar. So the much harder obstacle is first. In Shin, it started with the easiest of the series and continued to progressively get harder. By the time you reached the Spider Flip, most people were exhausted (as evidenced by Kanno in 22 and Takeda in 24). So Shin wins this one, hands down. Devil Buranco vs. Spider Flip (Jump and climb down) I'd say still, this one goes to the Spider Flip because despite the swing taking out three people, two of those people were because the shortcut wasn't figured out and one was because Nagano messed it up. Had Shinji Kobayashi or even Takeda in 15 known how to do that obstacle that way, we might have seen a final much earlier. The Spider Flip, although beaten on its first attempt, was failed by two people in the tournament after it was attempted. Pipe Slider vs. Gliding Ring Well, no contest really, Pipe Slider by far. Had the producers wanted to up the ante and find a mix of the Gliding and "Grinding" Ring, then I think it would have been much harder, but alas, no. Again, while looking at it, it does look lightyears easier than 5-17, I think that the competitor's skill level to the course was better. Competitors (especially qualifiers) were vastly more prepared than their 5-17 counterparts, that is why it looked so much harder than it actually was. Put in an obstacle like a Body Prop (or a newer, deadlier equivalent) in that first tournament it is introduced, it will cause damage (look at the Shin-Cliffhanger for example), but with this much talent out there, in the next tournament I would expect little to no one failing that obstacle by the people that really train for it (All Stars and qualifiers). So yes, I would say Shin-SASUKE's Third Stage was about the same as anything from 5-17. Final Stage. Yea I agree that the 5-17 was better, well at least faster and more exciting. 40 seconds for a Final Stage is a little long imo. That's why I like the 5-17 one. It was even more of a sprint than Shin's. Also, I don't think we can underestimate the people who first competed because they got in through trials. Those people saved Shin-SASUKE. Without them, the breakdown of the numbers looks a lot less impressive: 18: 6 -> 3 -> 0 19: 2 -> 0 20: 2 -> 0 21: 6 -> 3 -> 0 22: 2 -> 1 -> 0 23: 5 -> 5 -> 1 -> 0 24: 6 -> 3 -> 2 -> 0 Hardly impressive numbers by any stretch. (Wow long post )
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Post by Badalight on Jan 5, 2010 0:58:09 GMT -5
I agree somewhat scnoi, but I still think the old stage 3 is light years harder. It might be harder to think about but take it from somebody who has atleast somewhat replicated most of the obstacles.
Rumblinc Dice > Arm rings
By a LARGE margin.
Body Prop > Descending Globe Grasp
By a LARGE Margin (Remeber, I have a harder version of the regular lamp grasper, so with the globes closer together and a downhill slope it'd be much easier than the version I have, which I already find easy) now the body prop is still incredibly tough for me, and that's without adding gaps to it.
Curtain Cling > Devil Steps
By a LARGE margin
Devil steps are easy to replicate. I've done them, they're easy. Watch my videos for proof.. Now curtain cling.. when I replicated that I got owned. It takes more grip strength than you can imagine. Everyone thinks the obstacle was easy, I did to, but you have NO idea until you try it. It's not "impossible" but it's very under-estimated and still much much harder than the devil steps.
SCH > CH
1 for Shin-Sasuke, by a large margin
This is where it get's tricky. Shin-Sasuke has 2.5 obstacles in a row, 14-15 only had 2. But the 2.5 has it's advantages aswell. The 2.5 part is hard, but then you only have to finish up the last 0.5 of the spider flip. So yes, you do 2 1/2 obstacles in a row, but then you only have to do 1/2 an obstacle, so it cancels itself out.
Old jumpings bars > New
Hang Climbing > Bridge of Destiny
Spider Flip > Devil Burranco
Pipe Slider > Gliding Ring
By a LARGE margin
so shin has 3 points, 1 being harder by a large margin.
and 14-15 have 5 points, 3 of them harder by a large margin.
Yes, I agree stage 1 and 2 are harder in Shin-Sasuke, I don't believe I ever said otherwise. But I still believe 3 and 4 were EASIER (not EASY, just easier) in Shin-Sasuke. Considering those are the last two stages the difficulty of those is pretty important.
Just my opinion on the subject. I have tried versions of a lot of those obstacles.
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Post by awee1975 on Jan 5, 2010 6:17:37 GMT -5
Shin era's 1st stage is defintely harder. No contest really. Shin's 2nd stage is harder but only because of the salmon ladder. The rest of stage 2 are evenly matched. But i still think Shin's 3rd stage is easier than the past. 8 clears/25 attempts in Shin 3rd stage. Arm rings ( 18~24 ) = 1 victim. Shingo who was already injured. Down-LG ( 18~23 ) = 0 victims out of 24. Devil Steps = 1 victim / 24 attempts Shin-cliff = 7 fails / 23 attempts ( Levi is the only guy who failed twice )- ie. more passed than failed! Jumping bars ( 18~24 ) = 0 victims / 16 attempts Hang climbing = 1 victim / 16 attempts Spider Flip = 4 fails / 15 attempts ( Takeda is the only guy who failed twice ) Gliding Ring = 3 victims / 11 attempts ( Kongu is the only "real" fail the other 2 fails were...err...unfortunate. ) The shin 3rd stage was basically about the killer Shin-cliff. Master it & you are almost assured of clearing the 3rd Stage. Almost anyway. The other 3rd stage obstacles were easier than before- ditto to badalight's above reply As for the STQers, yes they were good but then again Sasuke also had trials in the past. Eg. Washimi & other less well-known guys.
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Post by Badalight on Jan 5, 2010 16:18:27 GMT -5
I thought the spider flip only had 3 fails...
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Post by scnoi1217 on Jan 5, 2010 16:35:11 GMT -5
Good, valid points bada and awee. But before we dismiss it as "easier obstacles and that's it" we should give credit where credit is due to the competitors that consistently destroyed those obstacles, especially after going a more upper body strength oriented first two stages. much more than 5-17.
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Post by RiderLeangle on Jan 5, 2010 16:43:56 GMT -5
I thought the spider flip only had 3 fails... Kanno: Course out 22 Okuyama: Failed Jump (Aim) 23 Takeda: Failed Jump (Grip) 23 Takeda: Failed Climb 24 That's 4 bada.
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