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Post by Oti on Nov 30, 2011 22:26:57 GMT -5
Over the duration of my absence, I've come to the conclusion that anybody who has a "leg day" probably doesn't know what he or she is doing (bodybuilders are an exception, but we're talking about sports athletes here). I feel that one's priorities shouldn't lie in training muscles. They should lie in training MOVEMENTS. The squat is not a leg exercise. It's a total body movement. It sounds nit picky and all, but there's a distinct difference between a squat and a leg extension. Even if you strengthened all the muscles that work during a squat, it's not the same as actually squatting.
Now, when it comes to assistance work, more often than not you train the muscles. Those hyperextensions, Romanian deadlifts and glute-ham sit-ups should all be used to strengthen your weak links (MUSCLES) in hopes of making the relevant big lift (in this case, the deadlift) a stronger MOVEMENT. I hope this makes sense. It's a concept I never really understood until I decided to stop being so prissy with my training and actually take the iron seriously.
Squats should have been in your training regimen ever since your knee was healed enough to walk and climb stairs normally. What specifically about the squat scares you? The squat makes for strong, healthy knees, provided it's done correctly. Also, what have you been doing since then in place of the squat? Hack squats are popular, and ironically worse for your knees than squats.
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Post by dudesky1000 on Nov 30, 2011 23:38:35 GMT -5
My hands are made of tissue paper and they always rip after doing more than 10 pull-ups at a time, no matter how easy it is for me to do them. I've tried normal chalk, and liquidy chalk stuff... how the heck do I upgrade my hands from tissue paper to paper towel strength?? In other words how do I make the skin on my palms tougher?
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Post by Oti on Dec 1, 2011 2:54:17 GMT -5
Where are the tears? Minor tears are nothing to worry about and will stop occurring naturally over time. Bigger, more inconvenient tears can usually be prevented through correct bar holding and TLC. More information, please.  |
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Post by dudesky1000 on Dec 1, 2011 8:00:03 GMT -5
Generally right below my fingers, at the top of my palm. They don't rip nearly as often as they used to but I think I may just be using a lousy grip.
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Post by japantv1210 on Dec 1, 2011 16:40:13 GMT -5
The squat scares me cause I tore my meniscus in my knee pretty much right after doing squats and I wasn't even doing anything. I just got down on the ground to mess around with my cat and felt a pop and my knee gave out. And I'm pretty convinced the squat had something to do with it.
In place of the squat I've been doing quad extensions, hamstring curls, and leg press. And it's definitely helped, because after my surgery my left leg was twice the size of my right leg. So these exercises definitely helped strengthen those "weak links" that you were talking about. Now my muscles are about even, but my left leg is still a bit bigger.
Oh and the physical therapists disagree with you there about squatting as soon as I was able to walk. They even told me to not bend my leg past 90 degrees when I could walk again. It was about three months after surgery before I was actually cleared to squat again.
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Post by Oti on Dec 1, 2011 17:34:07 GMT -5
Generally right below my fingers, at the top of my palm. They don't rip nearly as often as they used to but I think I may just be using a lousy grip. You're holding onto the bar incorrectly. Hold it higher on your fingers where it doesn't pinch your palm calluses. It may feel awkward at first but I swear you'll get used to it. Also look into a pumice stone and some kind of cheap hand lotion to keep your calluses under control in the future. The squat scares me cause I tore my meniscus in my knee pretty much right after doing squats and I wasn't even doing anything. I just got down on the ground to mess around with my cat and felt a pop and my knee gave out. And I'm pretty convinced the squat had something to do with it. In place of the squat I've been doing quad extensions, hamstring curls, and leg press. And it's definitely helped, because after my surgery my left leg was twice the size of my right leg. So these exercises definitely helped strengthen those "weak links" that you were talking about. Now my muscles are about even, but my left leg is still a bit bigger. Oh and the physical therapists disagree with you there about squatting as soon as I was able to walk. They even told me to not bend my leg past 90 degrees when I could walk again. It was about three months after surgery before I was actually cleared to squat again. Then you squatted incorrectly and that is not the squat's fault. Look into Mark Rippetoe's Starting Strength (the book AND the DVD), learn how to squat correctly and begin using it as the primary exercise. Continue to use the leg extension, leg curl and leg press as assistance exercises if you wish (not a bad idea, really). I'd also like to note here that the body is funny. It knows when you're about to kill it and it prepares for the struggle. Because of this, you're more likely to hurt, say, your back by bending over and picking up a piece of paper from the ground than you are by lifting a heavy load with horrible technique. I'm guessing that when you were squatting incorrectly, your body was at least tensed and prepared for the strain. Did you ever think twice about plopping down on the floor to play with your cat? Your body didn't either. As far as your physical therapists go, that's fine. They're free to have their own opinions. Oddly enough, doctors of medicine, sports doctors and physical therapists all tend to disagree on something as simple as squats in the first place. It has also been my personal experience that physical therapists are like personal trainers; most don't know what they're talking about. I'm not saying this is the case. It's entirely possible you found some of the good ones. I'm just letting you know where I'm coming from and why I recommend what I do. People have squatted for centuries. Those who do it correctly swear by it for its benefits, especially when it comes to the knees. I don't think some nerds in lab coats really have the power to change anything. That's all beside the point though. Assuming you wanted to follow their orders and not squat for at least three months, why haven't you been squatting since then? |
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Post by milktruck on Dec 1, 2011 19:41:30 GMT -5
I dont think my thread needed salvaging, it was pretty much case closed: nothing comes close to sasuke but people have at very least used it to reignight/ignight some related passions.
Sorry to leave you hanging on my rope question - just moved, changed jobs, and finally got internet back.
It seems like hand over hand, using all upper body, would be the slowest and most physically taxing way to get up the rope. I would think a better technique would be to grab with the hands, kind of crunch/kick your legs up as high as possible and lock your feet on the rope in the style of your choosing (I know there are a few techniques), then use this higher spot as a point to jump or at least extend your body back up to the highest point you can reach and start over. I feel like this was even how they taught me back in 3rd grade, and seems like it would be a much more efficient, whole-body, explosive way to get up a rope, but a lot of ANW guys seem to go all-arms.
However, like I said, I am talking out my a** because I havent climbed a rope in over a decade. Hopefully will get the chance shortly and report back, but in the meantime Id be intereted to hear your perspective on what the deal is.
I am thinking the part I may be taking for granted is the ability to lock your feet to get a stable base - maybe its harder than I think to do or not as stable a base as I assumed.
Or maybe its all the same when you are 155 lbs and have good upper body strength...
Im not overweight by any normal definition, but if ANW is "on" I am gonna have to cut some lbs to keep up with these compact rock climber guys. Or just try to get insanely strong, which is the more fun plan that I am currently on haha.
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Post by japantv1210 on Dec 2, 2011 15:22:51 GMT -5
I don't think I was using bad form on the squat. Do you think it could have to do with the fact that I had torn my meniscus before and never did anything about it because a doctor told me it was a subluxation and not a torn meniscus?
Yea I think my physical therapists were alright. But they seemed like the type of people with alot of "book training" instead of "hands-on training" if that makes any sense. Their reason for not bending my leg past 90 degrees was good though. It was because my meniscus was repaired and not removed, so it took longer to heal since there isn't a direct blood supply to the area, and they wanted to make sure I didn't reinjure it.
And like I said earlier, I haven't squatted since then, because I was kind of afraid to... yea I know... a stupid excuse haha.
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Post by Oti on Dec 10, 2011 9:24:05 GMT -5
It seems like hand over hand, using all upper body, would be the slowest and most physically taxing way to get up the rope. I would think a better technique would be to grab with the hands, kind of crunch/kick your legs up as high as possible and lock your feet on the rope in the style of your choosing (I know there are a few techniques), then use this higher spot as a point to jump or at least extend your body back up to the highest point you can reach and start over. I feel like this was even how they taught me back in 3rd grade, and seems like it would be a much more efficient, whole-body, explosive way to get up a rope, but a lot of ANW guys seem to go all-arms. That's exactly right. If you do this, you're effectively turning the rope climb into an ab/hip/leg obstacle and the exhaustion from stage three won't be slowing you down. However, like I said, I am talking out my a** because I havent climbed a rope in over a decade. Hopefully will get the chance shortly and report back, but in the meantime Id be intereted to hear your perspective on what the deal is. See above. ^^^ I am thinking the part I may be taking for granted is the ability to lock your feet to get a stable base - maybe its harder than I think to do or not as stable a base as I assumed. Or maybe its all the same when you are 155 lbs and have good upper body strength... It's not particularly hard if you have any kind of lower body strength and coordination. Body weight doesn't matter in Sasuke/ANW provided you're strong, so I don't think that has anything to do with it. Im not overweight by any normal definition, but if ANW is "on" I am gonna have to cut some lbs to keep up with these compact rock climber guys. Or just try to get insanely strong, which is the more fun plan that I am currently on haha. I'm glad you already understand this. So many people (particularly on this forum) seem to think you need to be as small and light as possible to do well on the course. It doesn't matter how big or small you are, how much or how little you weigh. If your training is worth beans, your strength and conditioning will be up to par. Now obviously there's a point where body fat becomes excessive and your bulk is just plain holding you back, but as far as lean mass goes, I don't imagine it matters. Just remember to strength train, because large muscles ≠ strong muscles. A badass physique (muscular build, low body fat, etc.) should be a byproduct of intense physical training because we (the ones here who train, at least) are athletes. As such, we should be focusing on our performance. If you train intelligently for performance and have a decent diet, your physique will pretty much take care of itself. Don't train to look good. Train to BE good. In this sense, you're on the right track. Just keep your diet in check and you won't have to make a distinct effort to cut fat. I don't think I was using bad form on the squat. Do you think it could have to do with the fact that I had torn my meniscus before and never did anything about it because a doctor told me it was a subluxation and not a torn meniscus? Yea I think my physical therapists were alright. But they seemed like the type of people with alot of "book training" instead of "hands-on training" if that makes any sense. Their reason for not bending my leg past 90 degrees was good though. It was because my meniscus was repaired and not removed, so it took longer to heal since there isn't a direct blood supply to the area, and they wanted to make sure I didn't reinjure it. And like I said earlier, I haven't squatted since then, because I was kind of afraid to... yea I know... a stupid excuse haha. IF (big if) the squats are to blame here, then it's safe to assume there was a problem with your form. The more I think about it, though, the more I'm wondering if you squatted fine and then just got on the ground in a bad way. Maybe you should actually be afraid of the ground. A torn meniscus isn't that big of a deal provided it's not absolutely shredded and swollen and causing you all kinds of pain. A lot of people with torn menisci simply take a week or two off from squatting, then resume with light weight and work their way up again. Obviously not everyone can do this, but just because you have a weak or injured body part doesn't mean you can't/shouldn't train it. More often than not, training actually helps. If you could walk, climb stairs and do body weight squats (which I would have tested, with or without my doctor's permission), barbell squats would've been fine. The outer portion of the meniscus has a blood supply while the inner does not. Did your therapists tell you where the tear was specifically? It sounds like they were sort of hinting at the fact that you had a deeper, more inner tear, but they may not have been. I still recommend what I said earlier; Learn more about the squat (just to be sure your form is spot on), then use it as your primary exercise. The other exercises should be used as assistance work. It's fine to be a little wary of the squat right now. Just approach it slowly and systematically. |
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Post by japantv1210 on Dec 10, 2011 16:35:14 GMT -5
Yea it was my lateral meniscus. But according to the doctor, it was completely shredded. It's kind of hard to describe since I wasn't told what specific type of tear it was. But it was torn horizontally and vertically if that makes sense, so the tears met in the middle and formed kind of like an intersection. I also had a flap of the meniscus protruding into my knee joint, which prevented me from extending my leg all the way. I hope that makes sense. But the doctor seemed amazed just by the fact I was walking on it haha. And I'll definitely look into better squatting form and progress slowly and surely.
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Post by milktruck on Dec 11, 2011 23:08:42 GMT -5
Thanks for validating my armchair musings, Oti. It blew my mind watching the same guys compete in the two sasukes shown last week on g4, not up their rope-climbing game between competitions. I know they didnt have a half million on the line like ANW, but if I made it that far once i feel like rope climbing would be my second job between competitions. Nice to know Im not totally full of it... I like your advice, as it is really aligned with my personal take on training.
Anyways, I would think that weight, especially lean weight, doesnt matter as much as the ratio of strength to weight, as you pretty much implied. However, I agree with one caveat - getting the strength to weight ratio within an acceptable range seems much harder when the strength is in your fingertips like for the cliffhanger, or grip, for various other things (although, I have a hunch a hook grip, where the thumb is tucked under the index and middle fingers, could be helpful in certain events where contestants often fall). This ration of weight to grip has got to be harder to get up to acceptable ranges than arm or leg strength since it seems to involve a lot more tendons and ligaments, which take longer to build up. So while I dont think its an either/or with weight and strength, I do see light weight as an advantage on some of the obstacles where people often fail. I, for one, have trained grip quite a bit and dont think i could get through the cliffhanger at this point without dropping to 200 or less from 220ish.
That is the part I have been incorporating into my training besides the low-rep strength training (and recently running) - grip stuff - and now that life has settled down I am getting into a better diet routine to lose a few lbs possibly.
Other than that I have a few goals to hit strength-wise and Im either joining crossfit with my gf or hopefully building obstacles on weekends to do ANW if we can get some confirmation it is on, which would be much cooler.
I walked around home depot dying to load up for a mini cliffhanger project today, but left with the electrical tape and drill bit I came for... Despite all this talk of what training is best, I think having replicas is the best preparation of all, and the ultimate advantage.
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Post by Oti on Dec 12, 2011 0:46:24 GMT -5
Anyways, I would think that weight, especially lean weight, doesnt matter as much as the ratio of strength to weight, as you pretty much implied. However, I agree with one caveat - getting the strength to weight ratio within an acceptable range seems much harder when the strength is in your fingertips like for the cliffhanger, or grip, for various other things (although, I have a hunch a hook grip, where the thumb is tucked under the index and middle fingers, could be helpful in certain events where contestants often fall). This ration of weight to grip has got to be harder to get up to acceptable ranges than arm or leg strength since it seems to involve a lot more tendons and ligaments, which take longer to build up. So while I dont think its an either/or with weight and strength, I do see light weight as an advantage on some of the obstacles where people often fail. I, for one, have trained grip quite a bit and dont think i could get through the cliffhanger at this point without dropping to 200 or less from 220ish. I would be inclined to agree with you if I hadn't learned about Hermann Görner, the man who deadlifted 727 lbs with one hand. While grip strength certainly does take a while to build, there's no reason a heavier person can't do something like the Cliff Hanger. That is the part I have been incorporating into my training besides the low-rep strength training (and recently running) - grip stuff - and now that life has settled down I am getting into a better diet routine to lose a few lbs possibly. Find your daily caloric requirements (tons of calculators online). Cut 250-750 calories a day from your diet. You'll lose 1-2 pounds of fat per week. If your training and diet are just right, you may even build a little muscle and gain some strength. I'd also like to point out that life, more often than not, will be hectic and all over the place, but that's no excuse to neglect your training and diet. This is aimed at everyone reading, not just you. If you're serious about your training, you'll do what you need to in order to train. If you don't, then training isn't a priority for you, plain and simple. Preparing meals ahead of time makes eating well at school/work possible (they typically feed you crap), while keeping a simple training routine makes squeezing workouts into your schedule much, much easier (any workout than lasts four hours is too easy). Other than that I have a few goals to hit strength-wise and Im either joining crossfit with my gf or hopefully building obstacles on weekends to do ANW if we can get some confirmation it is on, which would be much cooler. I don't recommend Crossfit for the same reason I don't recommend P90x or any of those other general programs. An athlete should have a clear picture of what his or her sport requires and should train accordingly for it. For the general public who don't participate in physical activates, then sure. Crossfit, P90x, whatever is fine and will get them some decent results. I just don't think we fit into the general public clump. Also, P90x's marketing makes me gag. "MUSCLE CONFUSION! AB RIPPEEERRRR!" I walked around home depot dying to load up for a mini cliffhanger project today, but left with the electrical tape and drill bit I came for... Despite all this talk of what training is best, I think having replicas is the best preparation of all, and the ultimate advantage. Replicas are technically the best way of training (muscle memory and all), but conditioning is also crucial and, for some reason, often overlooked. I'm actually starting to lean toward the belief that conditioning is actually more important than specific obstacle practice, but I need to meditate on that concept a little more first. Stay tuned. |
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Post by milktruck on Dec 12, 2011 7:57:47 GMT -5
Yeah, but I am not hans, as much as I am trying to be. That guy is an outlier and I think I could get to the point I could do it eventually, but you cant say weight loss wouldnt help. The good thing is that I cant imagine a caloric defecit affecting grip strength progression too much, tiny little mucles that they are. Maybe Im wrong but I think thats definately a case where you could progress in two directions at once.
I think the crossfit idea is reallly just my competitive side coming out and the fact that Im dying to climb some ropes, not a full endorsement of their system or methods. I have my issues with it and enough knowledge that if I am told to do something stupid like snatches for time (a technical lift that should not be rushed through in a fatigued state, esp by a group of novices) I will just go home and do my own programming. I kind of want to use it as a couple days of circuit training on top of what I do already, with the option to compete if I take to it. While I think crossfit is not the best way to train due to it trying to create adaptation to multiple qualities all at once, I think its way better than what most people do at the gym, and its based around the basic movements and they have you squat deep (at least the one time I went). In that regard I put it in another league than P90x. Like the "legitimate fad" rather than "marketing is so dumb i wont even look into it fad" category. Im sure p90x is better than what most people do in their living room as well, but the term muscle confusion is pretty gimmicky and lame.
I find diet is all about routine, as you said. I just moved, changed jobs, and this period was preceded by about 3 weeks straight where I was interviewing during my lunch hour and then again after work, so cut me some slack haha. Im back on the wagon now. Im just saying if ANW was on the table I would probably be super strict and do one of those Fast Fat Loss or Velocity Diet routes to knock off 20 lbs quick.
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Post by Oti on Dec 18, 2011 18:20:05 GMT -5
Yeah, but I am not hans, as much as I am trying to be. That guy is an outlier and I think I could get to the point I could do it eventually, but you cant say weight loss wouldnt help. The good thing is that I cant imagine a caloric defecit affecting grip strength progression too much, tiny little mucles that they are. Maybe Im wrong but I think thats definately a case where you could progress in two directions at once. My problem with weight in terms of Sasuke is that weighing less is not an automatic benefit. If you gain 15 lbs while doubling your strength and conditioning, you're better off than you were when you weighed less. People here seem to assume that when a competitor switches weight classes (either moving up or down), their strength stays the same, and that's a bad assumption to make. Your strength can flourish as you gain weight or it can stagnate. You can gain OR lose strength on a cut (although gaining is admittedly tricky). Now, if your strength and conditioning are constants, then sure. Weighing less is a benefit. But when is it ever that simple? Fun fact: It's recommended that you weigh between 2.5 - 3 lbs per inch of height in order to really use your levers and have some strength. At my height of 5' 11", that puts me at 177.5 - 213 lbs. I can picture the faces on some of the people here when they read that statement, but think about it. What if you do get up to about 180 lbs of muscle? How would a ton of extra strength kill your performance? A popular response is "Heavier people tire out sooner!", but given that their conditioning is the same, the bigger, stronger athlete will perform better. I think the crossfit idea is reallly just my competitive side coming out and the fact that Im dying to climb some ropes, not a full endorsement of their system or methods. I have my issues with it and enough knowledge that if I am told to do something stupid like snatches for time (a technical lift that should not be rushed through in a fatigued state, esp by a group of novices) I will just go home and do my own programming. I kind of want to use it as a couple days of circuit training on top of what I do already, with the option to compete if I take to it. While I think crossfit is not the best way to train due to it trying to create adaptation to multiple qualities all at once, I think its way better than what most people do at the gym, and its based around the basic movements and they have you squat deep (at least the one time I went). In that regard I put it in another league than P90x. Like the "legitimate fad" rather than "marketing is so dumb i wont even look into it fad" category. Im sure p90x is better than what most people do in their living room as well, but the term muscle confusion is pretty gimmicky and lame. Haha, that's Rippetoe. That's another thing a lot of people get butthurt over. I don't recommend P90x because, as athletes, we should be doing something better and more sports-oriented. I'm not saying P90x doesn't produce results. For the typical lazy, overweight couch potato, P90x will do some good. The point is that we should already be beyond that point. The only thing that I WILL call P90x out on is that you do not build strength during the routine, despite what the announcer says in the commercials. Strength comes from progressive resistance training, which P90x (and our military training) lacks. I find diet is all about routine, as you said. I just moved, changed jobs, and this period was preceded by about 3 weeks straight where I was interviewing during my lunch hour and then again after work, so cut me some slack haha. Im back on the wagon now. Im just saying if ANW was on the table I would probably be super strict and do one of those Fast Fat Loss or Velocity Diet routes to knock off 20 lbs quick. You get no slack, sorry. I'm not saying you need to constantly be eating perfectly or else you're a failure (another stupid belief in the fitness world), but I'm also not going to BS you or myself. Why don't you just cut 250-500 calories a day from your diet and continue your normal strength and conditioning training? You should be able to continue improving at whatever rate while losing fat slowly. 20 lbs would take you five or so months to go through, so this idea could work for a while. |
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Post by milktruck on Dec 18, 2011 21:14:22 GMT -5
Those are some fun facts, are those gymnastics rules of thumb? Im 6' even, so I am towards/over the high end, and it really "feels" right. I kind of feel like I am on the cusp of having better control of my bodyweight as I come down in weight and keep strength going up.
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Post by Oti on Dec 19, 2011 0:28:21 GMT -5
Those are lifting guidelines from some older lifter whose name escapes me, sorry. I'm at the opposite end of the spectrum. I'm floating around 150-155 lbs as I'm yet to put any serious effort toward gaining weight, but I can easily see 175-180 lbs being my ideal weight for overall performance. Yes, I plan on gaining weight and continuing to progress in my pulls and chins. I know. I'm crazy.  |
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Post by milktruck on Dec 19, 2011 14:01:54 GMT -5
jesus 150s?!?! Yea I can't see adding 20 kbs of lean mass not making you far more than 20 lbs stronger in every movement.
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Post by RiderLeangle on Dec 20, 2011 2:13:23 GMT -5
Is there some way to increase endurance for hanging (and moving in said hangs, sort of stage 3-ish), Like for example in this vid I wanted to keep going and make it back to the monkey bars but sort of burned out by the time I got back to the low bar the last time
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Post by Oti on Dec 27, 2011 23:41:25 GMT -5
jesus 150s?!?! Yea I can't see adding 20 kbs of lean mass not making you far more than 20 lbs stronger in every movement. Well since I strength train and keep my diet under control, I've only gained 10-15 lbs of lean mass over the past few years. I've also lost that much fat, so I'm still at 150 lbs. I've considered hardcore bulking, but I don't think it's for me. Is there some way to increase endurance for hanging (and moving in said hangs, sort of stage 3-ish), Like for example in this vid I wanted to keep going and make it back to the monkey bars but sort of burned out by the time I got back to the low bar the last time Do _______ until your muscles feel like they're going to explode. Rest for a few minutes. Repeat this process as many times as possible and call it a day. Repeat this procedure every few days for a few months and your endurance will be very good. This and doing max pull-ups will help a lot. I DON'T recommend relying on rock climbing since it isn't very good for this. It's good for grip strength and endurance, though. |
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Post by milktruck on Jan 22, 2012 22:54:28 GMT -5
How do you guys prefer to lock your legs when rope climbing?
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